multigrid support projectors

Hylke Lammert shared this feedback 5 years ago
Declined

I would like to see projectors able to project more grids. If come across this problem multiple times now when i want to build a blueprints on a projector. it will totally improve survival when your able to make bigger and complexer builds from the workshop.

Best Answer
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I would like to see this dream in actual game. NO for projectors on rotor/piston heads! NO for complex blueprint divided into parts!

Replies (120)

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This is absolutely necessary. I setup a whole drill boom and saved the blueprint only to find out that subgrids wouldnt be addable to a projection.


This also makes wheels not appear... which sucks.. a lot..

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This would be very handy indeed.

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Projectors absolutely have to project sub-grids as well. This is a completely necessary component that is missing in this game.

Imagine if blueprints on the workshop coulnd't copy over subgrids when you paste them. How retarded would that be? Immensely, that's how. Like, why even have blueprints at that point? That's what survival is like right now.

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Hello, thank you for the good idea. Lets see how popular it gets by voting.

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please implement this feature

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I can't remember where i red the idea: if a blueprint contains multiple grids the projector should have a selectbox to choose which grid (main or one of the subgrids) to project. I think this would be a great solution, very functional and probably not very hard to implement.

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Well, I think that ideally if a blueprint contains a grid with subgrid(s), e.g. thru piston or rotor then the projector should just project all the main and subgrids, w/o any further need for interaction to select subgrids and once the hosting element of a subgrid is placed the belonging subgrid should be weldable as well. If a blueprint contains multiple grids usually there is no reason to weld the asset partially. Doing so perhaps will just render it nonfunctional.

However, ur idea is useful if you have a blueprint containing subgrids that can be used as functional units (e.g. a cockpit section) so there is a reason to weld them on its own.

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I am a 99% survival player, and I consider this one of the most important suggestions. PLEASE add multiple grids, or give us a workaround (multiple projectors? synched projectors?). Currently, I cannot project 90%+ of any blueprints due to grids, and construction is tedious or impossible.

PLEASE.

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oh please.....

threre is nothing more frustrating to have these wonderful multigrid-creations on the workshop and not beeing able to build them with a projector in Survival....

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100% agree this should be a thing.

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Yes please. Since Rotors and Pistons are actually quite stable lately, this seems like the next logical step.

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I would really love multigrid projections.

However i think, there could be problems with interconnected subgrids like a piston connecting two rotors on the same grid. Easy solution would be to lock pistons and rotors while they belong to such a system and some blocks aren't constructed yet.

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This would be pretty handy indeed

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I would like to see this dream in actual game. NO for projectors on rotor/piston heads! NO for complex blueprint divided into parts!

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.p.

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If meerge blocks would allow the sub grids to merge into single grid. That would alow the projector to print the whole construct. And the we just grind off the suport links after printing.

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Would be very useful.

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i submitted it double by accident.

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This please!

You spend a lot time making a masterpiece in creative mode to bring it to survival and you get punished for using pistons and rotors...

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yup whe need support for that indeffenitly becausse sometimes when you whanna place something and it has multple grids it only places the largest grid only.aswhell a sort button on smallblock builds or largeblock builds

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Hello. Please, i have in the workshop a wonderful piece of fine engineering obviously relying on multi-grids due to its very complex nature. Contractors are complaining about the possibility to use the blueprint on the projector. I want you to consider how cold and loveless the world would be without my workshop item and ask you to solve this ticket ASAP because mankind deserves a chance.

Solve the ticket. Save the world.

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Oh god yes. this is killing me in Survival.

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multigrid support is really needed since most off the builds on steamworkshop are mutligrid becausse alot off players makes them so and also becausse sertain thing's are not only complex but also for sertain builds it looks more better also

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I don't know if this is a duplicate of another feedback, but I like to not only vote for the multi-grid projection, but also help narrow down on what to have in this improvement.

For a day and a half, pondering about the projectors,

I thought of this... in 2 parts...

Part 1: A selection list for choosing a grid from the saved blueprint under the Projector.

The Projectors can scan for grids and find the biggest one, don't they? If one does, it could be possible for the Projector to have a selection list to choose a grid from the blueprinted multi-grid assembly. In par with the blueprint grid selection, it should also scan for any active connectors, pistons, and rotors on its grid, like the Remote Control for Cameras. If it can find any of them, it should check to see if they have a head and if the connectors has locked to another connector off-grid. If 2 connectors are locked together on the same grid, they should not be listed. If they have a head or locked off-grid connector, it should repeat the functions on the sub-grids based from the founded heads and off-grid connectors, to see if they have the same thing. The scanning for stuff section goes to the Second Part below.

Part 2: Another selection list for choosing a connector, piston, rotor, or none (for itself), even if they're not functional and/or don't have a head or locked off-grid connector.

For the selection list for itself, piston, rotor or connector, if what's selected is headless, or connector is unlocked, the Projector should give a warning about NO HEAD CONNECTED or CONNECTOR IS UNLOCKED, respectively, and make the projected blueprint useless, just like the OUT OF BOUNDS warning. So that way, those who do more exotic weapons or contraptions of any sort in Survival have an extra Builder's Life convenience.


Is my explanation well-detailed? I'm just trying to make it easier for you devs on what to achieve for. I'm sorry if what I said is too much, or is said by someone else.

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even iff a projection is out of bounds aslong as its against a exicsting grid it still works when make multi part (space)stationbut whit real multigrids whe need the whole BP projected not just the biggest parts doesnt matter iff its has pistons/rotors or connectors

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I've been suggest by a dev to make the idea/plan I displayed earlier a feedback for an easy-finding.

Rob, I did say a selection list for choosing a grid from a single blueprint, which is part of removing the grid displaying limitations you pointed out.

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Please, please please make this a reality.

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Please.

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this is a double post

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Can you provide the link to the other post then ?

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Might be a bit of a stupid idea, but right now, current ideas for multigrid support would, generally, involve redoing the projector code. What if, instead, there was an option for ships, along with 'make station' 'make ship' to 'Freeze Subgrids' - this would freeze all subgrids on the ship (so pistons, rotors, modded stuff like hinges), and in it's frozen state be made into a single grid. This status could have a optional checkbox on projector to 'lose frozen status after subgrid is built' perhaps, or maybe you'd just have to fully build the ship, and after the whole thing is built select 'freeze subgrids' again, and the subgrids would be unfrozen, to be able to freely move around again. While frozen, of course, all options for piston extension/retraction, speed, rotors movement, etc, pretty much everything except for on/off status, would be greyed out.


In addition to being a boon for multiple-grid projections, this would also have the added benefit of assisting carriers when transporting ships with subgrids, or freezing in place projects that use a large-rotor-to-small-rotor-head emplacement (such as for interior decorating or other purposes) by possibly eliminating much of the 'clang-force' that affects ships with subgrids on them currently, thus allowing for a more stable 'storage' setting (by freezing the subgrids).

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Immortal words of Piccard. "Make it so"

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Whatever solution would allow projecting blueprints of subgrids would probably also solve the problem where dampers don't account for the mass of subgrids.

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i seen in a feedback post apparently there's some corrupted code that broke the multigrid support projectors

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Or even the possibility that a Rotor or piston does not seperate a grid. Some of my vehicles are one vehicle but the game does not register as one.

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Yeah I'm actually getting highly irritated that it's been like 5 years this was requested. Maybe even longer and its still not fixed... I spent like 6 months designing a ship and now I can't even bring it into a server.

WTF. Come on Keen. I have to quit SE until this gets updated.

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Multi-grid projections are broken in both the projector and the console block for the same reason. I debugged this issue while working on a dedicated server plugin about two months ago and added the following bug ticket with my findings:


https://support.keenswh.com/spaceengineers/general/topic/object-builders-sent-to-the-server-by-projectorsconsoles-contain-corrupted-data


If Keen would pair a developer with me for 30 minutes via Skype, then I would be able to show them the problems I found via screen sharing. Maybe fixing these issues would not be enough to get multi-grid welding fully working, but it would be a step in the right direction.


The matchmaking system I developed the plugin for has been completed since then: https://spacewar.se


But we cannot support multi-grid ships just because of this issue, thus players cannot bring those nice rotor guns to the battlefield today...

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Multi-grid projections are broken in both the projector and the console block for the same reason. I debugged this issue while working on a dedicated server plugin about two months ago and added the following bug ticket with my findings:


https://support.keenswh.com/spaceengineers/general/topic/object-builders-sent-to-the-server-by-projectorsconsoles-contain-corrupted-data


If Keen would pair a developer with me for 30 minutes via Skype, then I would be able to show them the problems I found via screen sharing. Maybe fixing these issues would not be enough to get multi-grid welding fully working, but it would be a step in the right direction.


The matchmaking system I developed the plugin for has been completed since then: https://spacewar.se


But we cannot support multi-grid ships just because of this issue, thus players cannot bring those nice rotor guns to the battlefield today...

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okay, you need to apply for one of the job-openings KSH has at the moment- you'd make a great lead developer...

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its not broken, multi-grid projection for welding has never been supported.

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Maybe I wasn't clear enough in my bug report, so I attempt to clarify it a bit:

Console: Multi-grid projection is supported, but often broken because of clearing the position of the first grid. This issue can easily be reproduced by two players watching the same console on a multiplayer server. If one player loads a multi-grid blueprint the other one will not see all sub-grids or see them at wrong positions in case the first sub-grid of the blueprint has a non-zero position vector. It can prevented by changing the original blueprint. Shifting all sub-grids so that the position of its first sub-grid becomes (0, 0, 0) works around the issue.


Projector: Currently, there is a workaround in SE's code which explicitly selects the largest sub-grid from the blueprint, so the projection shows only that one. This explicitly prevents multi-grid welding and hiding the other issues I mentioned. I guess they put this workaround in place after developers realized that sub-grids just don't come together for some reason they could not debug nor had the time to deal with properly.

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If I am understanding that right, then you're saying multigrid projection could work, it just needs to have the lockout removed from the projector, and then a rework of code on the projector itself to "see" the largest grids (centerpoint) as a 0,0,0 grid value, and then adjusting all subgrids off of that point?

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What I attempted to describe is, that multi-grid welding would need

  1. projection of all sub-grids at the right relative position to each other and
  2. connections between grids via the base and top parts preserved (entity ID matches) and
  3. automatic addition of top parts (rotor head, piston top) when the base part is welded.

Zeroing out the first grid's position prevents (1) from working. (It also breaks console block projections, that's the way to demonstrate the issue.)

Inconsistent remapping of entity IDs breaks (2) by disconnecting top parts from their corresponding base parts. Rotor heads from their bases, piston tops from their bases and wheels from their suspensions. In addition, this breaks button mappings between sub-grids as well (cockpit, timer, sensor).

(3) does not seem to work, because no top part is added automatically on welding a rotor or piston base from a projection. It could be fixed easily, since that action is available already. It just needs to be invoked at the right time. I do it in my Torch plugin driving https://spacewar.se in order to build wheels on race cars, even if no multi-grid support is available right now:

motorSuspension.ApplyAction("Add Top Part");

There may be more issues with multi-grid welding, but they are not obvious until the above three issues are fixed.

I hope it is cleaner now.

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still would like this to get fixed. Keen? Please

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Just made my first ship printer, this would be so handy for building it on my server! It would be great for my mining rigs as well.

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I just realized... you can spawn multigrid in creative. If you can "spawn a multigrid". Why can't you project it. Doesn't make sense. Please keen, get on this already. we gave you the answers you need to fix it.

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The code spawning blueprints employs consistent Entity ID remapping and does not break any positions. That's why it is working in creative mode.

In case of welding the blueprint is going through a projector, which has some faulty code breaking the connections between the sub-grids as I described above already. There is also the problem of adding the top part of any rotor or piston welded from the projection automatically, so the connected sub-grids can also be welded.

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This needs to be a thing, Keen?

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I would like to see this also.

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I would also greatly appreciate this feature!

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Please consider OP suggestion.

It is a bit annoying when you can create all these amazing ships and contraptions but cannot use projectors to bring them back to life. I often try to not use piston & rotors because I know theses are "one time deal" and they cannot be projected easily afterward without a lot of workaround.

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I already gave up and moved on. :(

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Yeah, I feel that.

I figure the only thing I can do is add my weight to this suggestion.

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Adding my line of support to this, multigrid projections should be in the game though

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I have been waiting for multi grid projections since the projector was added lol PLEASE!

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Should have been fixed and implemented along time ago, too many awesome blueprints for things as simple as solar tracking using rotors that this issue breaks.

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I rather would like to have that then yet another dlc with more decorativ blocks.

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thxs for putting it here this had to be fixed years ago but no the inplanted new stuff thats good to but the problems must be fixed before adding new stuff in

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Still considering this issue ?

Hopefully we get those multi-grid creations printable at some point.

:crossedfingers:

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Keen, please give me access to the source code and I will help you fix this. Or at least some time pair working with one of your developers remotely.

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LOL! It won't happen if you don't ask.

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He asked before (Other similar thread) and said he had found the issue and gave pointers (If I recall). But I don't think Keen or any company for that matter would share their source *.

* I know it was maintained on Github until end of 2017 but the fact is, it is now closed source

As for pairing of just doing this, it is a Priority / resources availables / other timetables in place for sure.

At least, this issue/request is clearly visible (Vote-wise / popular / trending, it shows at the top) so they know.

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Definitely know about the GitHub which is nearly 3 yrs old. If he has the solution, then make a diff patch and send it directly to Marek! There's no need to have the source shared if he already has the solution. If he can't make a diff patch then I seriously doubt he has the solution. +1 for good intentions.

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I would definately like to see multi-grid support for projectors. People spend a LOT of time creating these awesome ships and vehicles in creative mode, only for them to sit in creative mode only. It is much more fun to take that creation out into the wild so to speak, and run it in survival to see how it really performs. Evidently there are ways to get them projected piecemeal, but YOUR average player doesn't have the knowledge or skill to implement them, so they quit playing. In the end, that loses additional revenue for Keen, as they no longer play, and no longer by DLCs.

Yes, there are those that say "Too Bad, learn how to do it", but it is just easier to avoid the aggravation and go on to another game. So PLEASE, make the changes to allow multi-grid projections!!!

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Definitely 100% behind this one!

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This makes sense. Or at least put a link how to do it, eg. in good bot. That would give that AI a meaning.

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I think its an essential feature.

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I agree because then it makes a projector for a lot of builds now useless with multi grid builds being very popular, the amount of times I’ve done a build, blueprinted it and then had to rebuild the multi grid sections or find a secondary way of blueprinting them

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I also agree with this idea and add my own expansion of a possible option. Why not add a freezing option that when you make a blueprint so it is frozen in place during a projector part and then you can click to "unlock" the small grids etc for usage.

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The problem isn't their mobility, it's the entity ID mappings getting mangled in the projector.

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It would be fine if we had to project and build one grid at a time. What's hard is not being able to choose the subgrid to project. Sure, default to the largest, but let us have some way to access the other ones once that's built.

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It's more complex than just aligning them. You can try it, project and align the subgrid, when you trigger the lock (eg locking hinge part into hinge base) on the projected hinge part it usually explodes or shoots it off into space.


Trying to make the subgrid on a merge block scafolding is equally disastrous, when you delete the merge and try to lock the hinge/rotor/piston parts before they drift apart Klang freaks out.


The lock process has too much infinite force. They need to make it a more gradual weaker magnetic alignment like connectors.

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It would be great to have these things running on survival servers.

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ok this feels like ressurecting but multi grid projection is a must. What good is it to have loads of blueprints on workshop if you can't import them in a random survival server.

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Honestly I think this sounds like a wonderful idea!

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Sooo, no more movement on this? It's been well over a year since the question was raised.

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Give it another 3 years- it took them 4 years to correct some broken mirroring on a few blocks I reported, and I just realised a few days ago there are still a few more blocks that still have the same issue. They are hopeless and so far behind it's comical when it comes to even simple bug/issue fixing, let alone anything more complicated- even though the solution has already been provided by the players, they just need to implement it.

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It probably never will be, it has been a requested feature since projectors were introduced, yet keen doesn't seem to care and has always ignored it.

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Just wait for someone to do a mod to fix this and then it will be implemented with little to no credit to the modder.

It seems that all the latest major features are mod mixed into vanilla (like "Easy Inventory" by DraygoKorvan or the hinges blocks) and if you are expecting a bug fix then its better to wait on the console community to have the problem and then it will be fixed (e.g. not enough memory in your save file).

This game could have been great but is now milked with cosmetics and there is a very slow work on very old problems.

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It cannot be fixed by a mod, it needs access to deeper levels which mods cannot reach due to security reasons.

It could be fixed by using both a server and a client plugin which could patch all affected functions, but that's not practical on the client side and such a solution would potentially break with every single update of the game.

I agree about the general slowness of development and the observably low priority of fixing bugs. They don't seem to spend any significant development resources on fixing this game anymore. Considering the quality of code it would be just a huge cost sink with inferior results anyway.

If I were in Keen's position I would just do a full rewrite with a good (stable, scalable) core design and copy over most of the graphics from the current game ensuring that its overall style is kept intact. It would even worth breaking mod compatibility in favor of a redesigned API.

I have a lot more ideas, but seems to be a waste of time to share them. They just don't listen anyway.

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That would be great, imagine "Space Engineers 2: Less Headaches, More Game".

New interface, easier to fix bugs and programming blocks that dont require programming skills.

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That would be the dream- a better physics and game engine too- one which hasn't been mauled around for ~7 years in order to do what it was barely able to do to start with. Bonus points if they sell the rights & assets to a dev company that isn't run by an Elon Musk wannabe...

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I quit playing Space Engineers because multi grid projection doesn't work. It takes WAY TOO LONG to manually print every grid separately and attach them to ships. All of my best designs are therefore impractical in survival which is unfortunate.


I keep checking back every few months to see if this gets fixed but its been about 2 years now...

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Just adding another vote because this is super important. It's a shame that this still isn't a thing.

Projectors and all gameplay around them should get a serious iteration. Multigrid support, better UI, better everything.

It would be worth it to make an expansion just for this one feature. People would go crazy over what's suddenly possible in survival.

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The voting system is a keen way to not work and fix problems. Oh we have a serious problem ? Well, we cant work on it, because not enough votes.


Still this problem already has more then 670 votes, but probably not enough fix it.

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I guess the reason why this haven't been introduced already is because of server performance, as I think projectors already has some performance issue? If this is the case then an idea could be to only make projection visible to players/factions with permission given to the projector.

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Would be nice if we can choose what grid to he displayed by the projector when its multi-grid. Because i can make a second projector for the rotor head with its drills and attach them later after building.

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It would work by adding a non-negative integer property (slider) to the Projector block.

The integer would be used as an index to select the subgrid from the blueprint loaded for the projection, as you suggested. I have seen the messy code selecting the "largest" subgrid. That would be greatly simplified this way.

Positioning would still be a nightmare, since every single subgrid would have to be positioned manually. Since subgrid relations are lost no way to automate the positioning, other than some highly speculative heuristics... But this could also be fixed, see above in the chat. It is just a matter of calling the consistent ID remappoing function, literally a one line fix.

I actually used a similar workaround before. I saved subgrids as multiple blueprints in creative mode, then loaded them on a survival server for construction.

The blueprint must be designed to make such gradual build possible, since one block (possibly conveyor type) must be placed on the piston/rotor/etc. head with the next projector on its side to build that subgrid.

Adding such a subgrid index to the projector would make it possible to build any blueprint.

If the subgrid relation loss would be fixed (I think it could be done easily), then the projector would know the correct position as well, which would be convenient enough to use in practice.

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Keen, please connect me with one of your developers to discuss at least the easy to fix bugs and the feasibility of selecting a subgrid by index for projection instead of just picking the largest one.


Please, please, let me help fixing it.

I still have all the code, IDE and development tools on my machine.

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Hey Keen! We have 676 votes behind this issue so far! I can help you fix it, please just give me a chance. It is for free. Thanks!

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I've just read the Update 1.197, nothing relevant to this problem. So disappointed...

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I think we can forget about it. Wasted effort.


Pressed Keen about this on their Twitch reveal stream for the update, alongside some other fellow players.

The reply was "We already said multiple times: No plans to do anything about projectors / subgrids.".

So there you have it.

It's one of the top three issues on here. They don't care.


Seems a bit disingenuous if you ask me. Given the fact that they keep asking people to come here and post feedback, as if that's somehow the avenue to get it to their attention and get the ball rolling. They even put an "under consideration" label on this post. Obviously it's not under consideration. The top issues haven't been touched for years and they specifically said on stream that this issue in particular won't be touched anytime soon.

Needless to say it left a bit of a sour aftertaste. Still does. But at least we have some clarity now.

Unless, once again, some hero modder comes along to save the day, we won't be seeing anything done about these top issues.

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From what I understand, the issue cannot be completely fixed by a mod and requires access to areas that only keen can modify to truly fix the issue.

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Randolph, thank you for posting the information about the live stream. I don't follow them anymore...

Whitney, if you look back above in the chat, I described there what needs to be changed. Problem is that not only the server needs to change (which could be fixed with a Torch plugin), but the client needs to be fixed as well to not corrupt the loaded blueprint before sending it to the server.

I have a general feeling that they either deem it to be too complex to fix (a time sink) or have other (undisclosed) plans to work around subgrids (so they are not needed at all somehow).

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i am keeping send this problem on there fb page every time they come up with some new stuff instead of fixeing old stuff this should be fixed from the beginning not in the near future

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Multigrid projections should be the norm not the aberration. I have 4 hinges perfectly aligned with the rest of the grid and locked so they can't even move, with some equipment mounted to them that is the entire reason I have this ship in the first place, and so I'm forbidden from building this object I already hand built in survival because...reasons?

I hope "Under consideration" means "Under consideration" and not "Officially ignored"

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I will go with "Officially ignored", this bug reporting with votes seems to have the same items that it had a year ago and very little response from official channels.

There have been game breaking bug unattended for a long time, and things that should had been in vanilla since V1.0. Its nice the idea of DLCs with new blocks and planets (aka big asteroids with atmo) but where are the basic things that matter like projectors with subgrids?

This is a nice game that need some real love to be great again.

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Actually, I've been trying to fix it myself by modifying the game client.

There is some progress already:

  1. Removed the warning message on loading a blueprint with multiple grids.
  2. Removed the selection of the largest grid, it keeps them all.
  3. Fixed the inconsistent remapping, so the blueprint should be intact (not corrupted).
  4. Got all the grids displayed, but it does not play nicely with the hologram code yet. Only the "preview" grid selected for welding is shown as a hologram, the rest is showing up as opaque but with physics correctly turned off.
  5. The grid to be welded can only be selected by a constant index, currently. Not from inside the game yet. I consider using the projector's Custom Data property for this as a temporary workaround.
  6. I could not test welding through grid connections because of (5) above.
  7. Could not test whether it plays well with multiplayer.
  8. It will likely break visually if any of the pistons/rotors/hinges will move during the welding process. Welding may not happen where the grids visually appear. I suggest locking all connecting blocks, so this does not happen.

It has been a bit complex to do this so far, most of the time I just manage to crash the game.

But I'm getting better at this...

unknown

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Sorry for the really ugly multigrid test ship. Just dropped one together on the go.

Never give up! :)

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You are my hero Viktor Ferenczi!!!!!!!!!! Hoping you catch some attention from Keen and at least an offer to help fix the projector!!!!!

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We did, actually. Me and a friend built a matchmaking system for Space Engineers last winter. We started working on racing scenarios as well. There was no interest from players, so we closed it. Now Keen released the Scrap Race scenario...


The Space Battle system looked like this:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCkGxP666zfG1pvI1e_1BKjw


These days I'm trying to reuse the tech built for that and the knowledge accumulated about the game's internals to do something useful with it.

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guys just give up, its really clear that keen hardly cares about what the community wants, look at the latest update it gave us blocks that should have been their years ago, if you want something better look for other games, like starbase and starship evo, they are 100 times better

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"We did, actually. Me and a friend built a matchmaking system for Space Engineers last winter. We started working on racing scenarios as well. There was no interest from players, so we closed it. Now Keen released the Scrap Race scenario..."

This game moves forward taking modders ideas and selling them like theirs... It's the selflessness of modders that keep pushing this game forward else it would be forgotten.

Bram, let that who still dream of making a better game keep on pushing forward and let the rest of us search for that something we keep looking for in a science fiction sandbox.


I for one I'm looking forward Starbase and Stationeers.

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Dual Universe seems to be a better alternative to me, but haven't tried it yet.

What is you experience with DU?

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Haven't heard of it until now, seems like a cross between SE and Eve Online, would try it if it weren't for the suscription.

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Skip Dual Universe. It is no alternative to Space Engineers (at least not in its current pre-alpha state labeled as a Subscription Based Beta).

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Is this also the cause why the "wheel" wont show up (and thus be repaired/added) for a wheel+suspension block that went missing due to destruction?

For example: Rover with suspension wheels, where it wrecks and loses the suspension (and wheel). You turn on repair projector, and go weld the suspension back on..... but the wheel never shows up!

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Wheels are single block sub-grids, indeed. Their top block is the suspension. They are connected via EntityId value the same way as pistons/rotors/hinges are.

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Two + years and still not been amended to allow multi grids on projectors.....wow, wish I'd not purchased game now

really affects new players this and can't beleive hasn't been handled yet.

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I would not regret buying the whole game just because of this single issue...

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Well thankfully I am not you...

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Well, I can understand the being ticked off part... cause I have some bugs I absolutely despise. And if you group all bugs and look at the big picture, this game is a disaster of problems which one can regret paying for.

However there are many bugs in the game that affect people in different ways. Maybe this bug doesn't affect Viktor as much as it does you SkittZ? Why is that a bad thing that warranted you to attack him?

Plus I'm not sure I understand your comment. You are thankful that you are not someone who can look past this bug and enjoy the rest of the game they bought? Well, masochism IS a thing.

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At the time of writing SkittZ joined this forum only 21 hours ago, based on his profile.

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bullshit, nothing to do with other thread, your only comment/reply to me posting about an issue, was "whatabouttery" It's ok for me, so therefore doesn't matter....why bother replying or commenting if not got same issue or can't advise on a fix or another thread ?

Timing of me joining the forum is totally irrelevant


Fridigman, where did I attack him ? I replied to his nonsensical reply in same manner he replied.


you were very quick to have a go too eh ? anything relevant to the issue at hand or just want to be a keyboard warrior...no, didn't think so...

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In fact, forum as a whole is a waste of time, have fun, I'll look elsewhere for answers without the sarcasm, whataboutery and personal attacks..see ya

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"where did I attack him ? I replied to his nonsensical reply in same manner he replied." - you answered your own question in your own statement.

"I'll look elsewhere for answers without the sarcasm, whataboutery and personal attacks" the only attack's I've seen here ,is you flying off the handle about everything and being called on it. Have fun trolling elsewhere. Delete your shit on the way out.

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LOL... guess one cannot delete or edit their posts. This really isn't a proper "forum", its a pretty hacky support/upvote website with serious flaws.

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I will post my progress notes on a higher voted duplicate of this topic:

https://support.keenswh.com/spaceengineers/pc/topic/multigrid-support-for-projectors

Please follow that topic if you want to get updates on the development of the client side plugin which is supposed to fix this. Thanks.

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I haven't given up yet. Work in progress from a week ago:

unknown

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Understanding the decompiled code is hard. Attempting to fix it by applying runtime patches is a small nightmare. But I'm slowly getting better at it...

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Yeah, that^ made a lot of people happy seeing that pop up in our feeds, great work even if it isn't final yet. As for the code being hard to understand; spaghetti code!

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A friend of mine posted it on Reddit right after I sent him the screenshot.

Got 222 upvotes so far:

https://www.reddit.com/r/spaceengineers/comments/l0p5lq/multi_grid_projection_alias_the_fuck_you_clang/

I did not expect him to do it, it was a bit premature, because the projection cannot be welded up yet. That's what I'm working on these days.

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Great work Viktor!

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Adding my vote.

New player here, was super surprised to find multigrid blueprints are not supported by projectors, why design it to be so limiting? Moving parts are what make the builds in Space Engineers so cool. They are also what make builds more useful in a survival scenario.

So without multigrid support we can't use any of the best builds on the workshop - or from our own creative modes - in survival. In fact, it's hardly even worth going to the effort of building a more complex design in survival by hand given it cannot be easily rebuilt/reproduced when it inevitably gets smashed up...

Very disappointing to see that this has been a popular request for such a long time and yet still no visible effort from Keen here.

Thanks Viktor for your work on this, gives me hope.

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Hey Viktor,


Good gosh dang progress, but I gotta ask, what sort of plugin is it?


Torch, keen, client?


Really glad that you have spent all this time working on this. Great work!

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This is a client side plugin, replacing more than half of the projector's code.

I'm still testing it and working on the corner cases, which there are a lot. I want it to be fully usable. For example, one should be able to repair broken rotor guns by having a single repair projector on the entire ship.

Once the client plugin is done, I plan to create a Torch plugin as a server side counterpart. It would allow for multi-grid projection on multiplayer survival servers, where it would make the most sense.

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Lovely, you made excited for this game again, like truly exited.


Keep up the work :)

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Totally awesome man, do you think this will cost any more or less system resources than the stock code that you're replacing? And how should end users expect to install this plugin when you release?

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Today's video: Welding rotating rings

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xn6LguT56uQ

Early access DLLs and source code are available via Patreon:

https://www.patreon.com/semods

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fd45b42884517da67173a7cdc28e7fa8

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Epic! My hero!

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so is the plugin ready?

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Looking good!

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Thanks for all your hard work. Its like looking at a miracle. This feature is badly needed for survival.

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after 2 years of "Under consideration" finally. thx

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Wow, looks like it works pretty well!

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@Hylke Lammert


I'm an independent modder, not a Keen employee. So this has been "only" about 2 months in the making so far.

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Multigrid Projector - Welding Tachi's Rotor Turret

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=40&v=qsRfIeL3aro

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Is anybody still interested in this?

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I think it's safe to say a very large amount of people are interested in multi-grid projector support. That being said, it's long been considered impossible due to Keen not doing anything with it, despite the number of votes this thread has.

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What he said^.

It would solve so many issues with people wanting to download blueprints from the workshop without having to manually add sub-grids in Survival mode. If it were released as a mod it would be very popular, my concern being how long before Keen change something that causes it to break? They need to actively work with Viktor to implement it into vanilla, whether there is the will or desire to is another issue...

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I agree. Nice to see there is still some interest in it. I finish it then. :)

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Just a question but have you tried Projection Inception? Like instead of one big projection that includes subgrids as part of the main projection, what about once the block the subgrid is attached to is built the subgrid's projection pops up? Sort of like temporarily storing the blueprint inside the blocks that create subgrids. As in, give Rotors, Pistons, Hinges, etc... the ability to project blueprints too??


I have no idea if projectors are like doors, and can only do the one thing.

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There is already a mod like that Apex

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Where??? I have never seen a mod like the one I described.

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Very much still interested, all the coolest designs use subgrids and it'll be great to have access to them in survival, will also make repairing things like miners so much easier reducing the adverse nature of subgrid builds

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@bodyboarder2528 No. That just auto adds a projector. I said give Rotors, Hinges, and other blocks that create subgrids, the ability to also project blueprints.

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@Suicid Neil: "If it were released as a mod it would be very popular, my concern being how long before Keen change something that causes it to break?"

I'm putting safeguards into the plugin to look for code changes on Keen's part and checking some assumptions I made about their implementation. If anything has changed, then the plugin will refuse to load and a log message will indicate where the problem is.

In such a case I need to step in and update the plugin to be compatible, which needs work. That's why I have a Patreon page, so people finding it useful may consider supporting my efforts: https://www.patreon.com/semods

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YouTube Video: Multiplayer multigrid welding

I've just recorded it alone, playing on two machines in the same world.

Works for multiple SE clients in multiplayer.

Does not work for dedicated server / Torch yet.

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Very nice

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Viktor, yes still very interested, if you are looking for a good torch testing environment with the players too push on a server and see if it breaks, I can see what I can do about mustering people from the server I admin on , a lot of them would be very exited by this and would gladly be test dummies :).

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Please see the latest post on this thread then. You can try it now. There is a download link.

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Early access release of the Multigrid Projector plugin


Latest early-access version for download:

https://www.ferenczi.eu/se/08ac8024-58a6-463a-9644-03e335c1a8d7/MultigridProjectorEarlyAccess.zip


How to install:

- Exit from the game

- Extract the ZIP file somewhere

- Run the batch file: run_game_with_multigrid_projector.bat


It will install the client plugin into the game and starts it once with the plugin loaded. If you start the game from Steam, the plugin will not be used.


Troubleshooting

- Crash on starting the game: Check if the log contains "An attempt was made to load an assembly from a network location". If yes, then right click on the `MultigridProjectorClient.dll` file, open the Properties dialog box and **Unblock** it. Do the same to `0Harmony.dll`. It happened on Windows 7 for one tester so far.


Please report any bugs/crashes/suggestions on the Discord server:

https://discord.gg/PYPFPGf3Ca


If it would crash, please include

- Crash log (not just the message, but the full log file or stack trace)

- The blueprint loaded (`bp.sbc` file or Workshop link)

- Save file (if possible)


Do NOT report them to Keen, they have nothing to do with this "impossible" feature!


Thank you for your testing efforts!

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Amazing!

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Nobody tested it? Where is the interest?

The client plugin build is still up for testing:

https://www.ferenczi.eu/se/08ac8024-58a6-463a-9644-03e335c1a8d7/MultigridProjectorEarlyAccess.zip

No, it will not format your hard drive.

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Hey, I've been messing around trying to get another plugin to work properly with my SE for the past few days so I've put this aside, though I'm now at a point with the other one where I believe it is stable and working properly. The other plugin is the SEWorldGenerator. I'll now be trying out yours both with and without the other .dll running. Will let you know if I experience any issues

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Hi Viktor

It seems to be a good solution watching your video.

I uninstalled the game few months ago and this is maybe also the case for others following this feature request? I also guess it can take some time for new engineers before realizing that lack of multigrid support in vanilla?


It could be great if Keen would contact you and look further into this.

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This is the no-compromises, convenient and performant solution.

They haven't reached out to me yet. We'll see what happens...

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Tested it and I see what you did there. Couldn't have been easy (albeit not too hard for Keen) to implment. Making it so we no longer weld up individual parts, like the piston head or rotor head, instead we weld up the piston as a whole and the rotor as a whole and so on. Pretty ingenious but does that include the components needed for both parts when welding?

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I have tested it and I see what you did, building the whole piston/rotor/hinge and not the seperate parts, however what are the drawbacks to this aside from having both part be welded simultaneously?

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Just tested viktor, I love it! works well, even the piston length is the same but you can get the piston to glitch through a wall if you have it extended in the projection and put blocks where the actual extendy bit is. (idk how fixable that is) still, great job... give torch plugin!

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Multigrid Projector client and server side plugin downloads:

https://www.ferenczi.eu/se/multigrid-projector/

  • Client plugin for single player and shared multiplayer
  • Torch plugin for multiplayer servers
  • Works both in creative and survival
  • Can weld all kind of blueprints, including large head on small rotor base

It may still have bugs or crash.

Please report the bugs on the Discord server in the #bug-reports channel. Thank you!

SE Mods Discord: https://discord.gg/PYPFPGf3Ca

Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/semods

Thank you for supporting my efforts.

I stop posting here, because community management / communication starts to eat up too much time. Please join the Discord server above if you would like to know more in the future. Thank you for your attention so far.

Viktor

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I like to test this out on a dedicated server, where I think it has the most use. I first need to learn how that Torch plugin stuff works though, but good work on this. We have been waiting years for it !

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It works very well!

I can launch my small rockets from the cockpit and they will be automatically created from the projection on the big grid!!! Amazing, thanks!


4058c721a653eef1eb5bc3719c5d5eb1

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Wow! I'm so excited it works well for you!


The Multigrid Projector is on the Steam Workshop now:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2415983416

Updated and loaded by the Plugin Loader. Please see the details in the description on the Workshop.

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Multigrid Projector plugin mod available via the Plugin Loader:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2415983416

Torch server plugin:

https://www.ferenczi.eu/se/multigrid-projector/

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Multigrid Projector plugin mod available on the Steam Workshop, loads via the Plugin Loader:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2415983416

Torch server plugin:

https://www.ferenczi.eu/se/multigrid-projector/

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No not Under Consideration this must be done streaght away now whe cant use alot of cool blueprints

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A total must have, it has been asked since the first DLC.

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Workshop plugin mod, available via the Plugin Loader:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2415983416


The server side companion Torch plugin was officially released on torchapi.net:

https://torchapi.net/plugins/item/d9359ba0-9a69-41c3-971d-eb5170adb97e

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Yay, 800th thumbs up :D

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Vote # 830 here. You can do it Keen!

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Vote # 830 here. You can do it keen!

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According to steam SE has an active player base of around 6000 people. 830 is more than 10% of that. This needs to be implemented, it’s one of the features which would make survival a lot more playable. The biggest reason I see limiting the number of people playing this game is the amount of time you need to spend in survival just to get a basic base going. Fixing this issue would cut downthe time needed by orders of magnitude. With this implemented you can use ready made mining rigs, fly out to an ore deposit and place one down, and it would automatically drill the ore for you. With drones to carry the ore to your main base you can spend your time setting up mining sights while drones collect resources for you. The essentials of your base can be a blueprint and you can project and build cranes to have your base automatically expand. This would let you build a huge mining imperium in a day or two instead of weeks or even months of playing, which would open up the game to people who don’t have as much time to spend on the game. This is probably the single most important feature to keep SE alive right now. So maybe change the status from ”under consideration” to ”number 1 priority”. Assuming SE is still a priority and SE 2 or some other project isn’t the priority.

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How has this still not been implemented when we have a comment here of someone ^^WHO FIGURED IT OUT^^

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@Keen

Proof of concept is ready, available as client and server plugins: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2415983416

Full source code is available: https://github.com/viktor-ferenczi/multigrid-projector

We would like to see a clear statement on whether this will ever be added to the vanilla game or not.

Please decide about this request. Yes or No. Don't keep players hanging in the air. Thanks.

Details:

MGP patches/replaces most of the projector logic and part of the welder code. It also relaxes the welding rules slightly to make it easier to weld around subgrid connections and allow welding all kind of blueprints towed together (large head on small base, building based under top). MGP has a workaround to allow welding top parts overlapping heads and auto-attaching them. It has a convenience feature, auto-aligning self-repair projections. It has full mod and programmable block API for maximum compatibility and extensibility. The implementation is a bit hackish here and there, because patching cannot properly replace classes, nor modify them.

Keen owns and original source code of the game and could come up with a cleaner implementation (rewrite of the projector) based on the proof of concept MGP code base. They could if they wanted, if this could be soled as a DLC or otherwise bring in more income. But it does not, so this is not a priority. It would be just one more complex feature to support in the long term, which they seem to deem to be costly. Keen does not seem to want to go down this road. I can understand them. Multigrid welding is a real can of worms, full of corner cases complex logic.

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It seems to me that the problem is that when you have already developed the base, there is nothing to do.

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Yes! If I could ask for only one improvement to the game, it would be this.


It was extremely discouraging to spend a few days building a rover, test it, tweak it, add features, get it just right for what we need it to do, and then set up a printing station to build a second one from a blueprint, only to find out that we can’t because projectors don’t support subgrids.


Just about every vehicle my crew and I create has some combination of pistons, hinges and rotors. It means that, in survival, blueprints and projectors are largely just useless to us. Frankly, this just sucks. Really sucks.


I play on xbox on a crossplay server with my friends. Since it’s xbox crossplay, client-side scripts are disabled. And we’re running vanilla; so no mods.


Our only hope is that the game gets updated to fix projectors. I say “fix” because as far as I’m concerned, they’re just broken right now; at least on consoles where we don’t have the option of mods to allow this.

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This needs to be added to the game. It would be so very helpful and fun for the game.

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This would be brilliant and would add so many opportunities. Unfortunately this seems to come up a lot with others as well, but I just spent a long time designing a compact to expanding missile only to find it couldn't be printed as the hinges and pistons could not be projected. If this could be sorted as part of a dlc or something that would be great!

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Why bother with the projector? There is a better offer for Keen: to create a DLC for $1000 where the main character has a nose piercing. They will do it in three days! Or leopard underpants... It's easier and more profitable.

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That's useless and not improvement of gameplay, plus $1,000? you're better off playing Star Citizen with that kind of money.

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Multi-grid support in the Projector would be awesome, defiantly would improve gameplay and diversity of what players can create without having to use a large and small projector for 1 blueprint. 1 projector for them is perfect. I also believe it would improve on game performance as well, because there will be much less CU being used with just 1 projector on multi-grid blueprints. It would also allow players to make some of their blueprints of what they built into blueprints instead of world, awesome designs that I think should be better as blueprints and for players to build in their world.

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This would be great in the base game. But, if you are willing to use the plug in loader, there is a plug in that gives you this feature. It is extremely nice to have your solar array actually appear in your projections.

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I agree and would love the projector capable of being mounted anywhere and be able to build it's blueprint on whatever grid the projection touches. That would open up sooooo many more possibilities and options of what can be done with it. It's extremely limited and we can't be too creative with it, using it on machines we create, the way it is now.


I would highly support the idea of including Viktor's plugin in the default game. The work is already done, it already exists. Use what already exists and give the author royalty payment options and credit for their work. Some modder community members would add to the development team if keen would actually hire them as staff.

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I'm definitely a proponent of this. If I use a rotor, hinge, or piston, I have to find some workarounds to build blueprints. I end up adding separate grids to my blueprints and try to keep them organized together so I can build things in Survival Mode.


Every sub-grid is attached via a rotor-head, piston-head, or hinge-part. They are typically inert, non-terminal blocks. But why not give them elements of a projection block and use them as anchor points to project subgrids once they are built? The orientation of the sub-grid to the head piece could be saved as part of that block.

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With the increase and more viable option of custom turrets via the custom turret control block added in warfare 2. Its highly likely more creations will need this or you'll be forced to reprogram and rebuild the turrets every time you get on another server or build another ship containing a custom turret. Also with the improvements to collisions over the last few months ships with more advanced exterior and interior subgriding are ever present.

2 improvements /additions to the game making subgriding more prevalent, it only makes sense to provide a method to bring ships with these features wherever you need.

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Sorry error appeared when commenting making it upload multiple times so overwritten it with this a I cant see an option to delete comment

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as a mostly survival player this is actually something that stops me using sub grids often. I like to design in creative but if those designs can’t be easily projected in survival it feels pointless.

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Created an account just to give this thread more love, getting desperate now as players get more creative with their designs and with the new custom turrets it's almost a full on requirement!


Let's go Keen, keen to see this one sorted out :)

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I want to suggest something to add upon this, since Building Direct multi grid vehicles might be tough to make with projectors. How about allowing the projection of individual Sub-grid pieces of a blueprint? And then they can be attached to the ship in ways like Drones or Cranes. I thought it would be a great idea after watching a Youtube video by "BlackArmor" of the "Companion" that is like a canine walker drone, and it had it's turret swapped for another weapon type. So if it's possible to make turrets able to swap out, it could be possible to make other parts able to swap too. It could be just the way they might want to go?

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With the new custom turret controller we now really need to be able to project and print subgrids. At the moment no design done in creative containing a custom turret controller can be printed. That really sucks.

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Now with the advent of the custom turret controller, Keen has put a lot more pressure on the rotor and hinge blocks. People are creating tons of subgrids where as there weren't as many before.

Rotor heads, piston heads, and hinge pieces are basically the anchor points for all sub-grid projections. Those block pieces also share the same function. They also have direction as far as their orientations. So apart from first spawning the rotor head, piston head, or hinge piece, a separate projection could be linked to each of those to solve the problem. The down side is that the color of the piece might end up as default. But that's an acceptable trade off for the convenience of projecting subgrids.

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How complex does it really have to be ? A blueprint can already store the complete design, projectors simply need to be able to project both grid types at once and attach piston/rotor/hinge parts as they are built, for added safety, it can build them from a projection automatically locked so they don't move and mess up grid alignment till the player wants them to unless of course the projection is allowed to move with rotating/extending parts... I reccommend locked, makes it simpler.

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I've been trying to find a work around for this problem since the game came out. The way I see it, we ether need to be able project rotors, pistons and hinges with out their "heads" (sub grids) so that we can create a way of connect and assemble them from two separate projections afterwards, or just be able to weld the hole thing from one projection. So far not a lot of progress has been seen in understanding the urgency of the problem or in trying to solve it. My latest post explaining the details was 9 month ago wile my first attempt was in Beta. A projection of a rotor that has it's head removed still spawns with it's head attached. So you have to create intricate and complicated systems in order to detach, grind or shoot that block off before you can connect it to the next projection that has the head part you want it to connect to.

A secondary problem is if you ever need to repair that part, the collision box is to big on the main part of a Rotor, Hinge or Piston to allow a replacement of a broken head part on the other grid. This means that if you use it in battle and that block gets broken you can't repair it.

This issue made me stop playing the game as I couldn't progress with what I needed to build 9 month ago but I've been waiting for a fix for this since the game was in early access. It's frustrating as it doesn't seem they understand the urgency.

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My thoughts exactly :)

I would like to add that I personally like the fact that projectors only project one grid, since that forces you to build assemblies, which is cool and "more realistic" than simply building the whole thing.

But we definitely need a "Project head ON/OFF" setting on the blocks, and an "Add/connect head" on pistons.

I would also want to see a conveyor block so that you can easily move grids around without needing arms/pistons (which require subgrids). The conveyor would need to have a magnetic force (like the connector) so that it works in space too, that would be amazing :) And the conveyor could be used as tracks for vehicles too :)

Basically just give us the tools to build proper factories and we will be happy :)

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Pls keen we need this.

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Still not in yet ? Victor's solution might work, but since you can't install plugins on most server hosts like nitrado it's a bit futile unfortunatly.

It would be really nice if they would finally consider this to add to the game. However it doesn't feel like it ever will.

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I really wish any of the community managers did update this thread status. Keeping it "under consideration" for 3 years seems like a "won't fix" at this point. Why not change the status so we stop hoping and / or provides some kind of update if there's anything planned on that feature. Multigrids structures & ships are fun and add more complexity to what we can do but printing them requires a lot of manual assembly since we can only print one grid so it kind of make it hard to mass print.

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We have custom turrets in vanilla now but cannot save them as part of the ship's blueprints... seems kinda half done.

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I agree. This would be a very useful addition to survival, and perhaps even creative.

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I agree. This would be a very useful addition to survival, and perhaps even creative.

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The multigrid projector mod is a "must-have", if you want to build anything more complex than potato.

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Please for the sake of Klang give us multigrid projectors. It wil make th emazing creations you keep showcasing on the facebook page a reality for survival games.

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Warfare 2 custom turrets and all of the cool ships with sub grids are severely underutilized because subgrids are not only Jank with the physics but horrendous to build in survival. Keen, please fix subgrids and projections.

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As a CTC user, I want to be able to print blueprints that contain subgrids. Please make this happen. It's been a long-time issue that we can't print subgrids and the need for subgrid printing continues to grow. Thank you.

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i voted this because i would like a projector can one or both of those 2 things:

1) store multiple blueprint in the block and select the one to be projected

or/and

2) project more than 1 SEPARATE grids

stop

projection spawn of subgrids it is already in creative mode, and to permit this thing in survival is pure exploit imho, no reason to have sub-sub-grid projection in survival; spend your time in something more usefull

thanks

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Everyone says to use projectors on separate parts.

A) this takes 8 hours to build a blueprint in survival if it was even possible, for large ships

B) there isn't room to plop projectors in lots of cases

C) Ain't nobody want to go redo all the settings for every singe subgrid and all their parts. For example limits on custom turret angels for each turret.


The lack of an ability to bring a blueprint into the game that uses a custom turret or other subgrids, is completely ruining the game for me.

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You know this exists as a plugin now right?

It even has some extra features like auto allignment for repair projections.

Move projections with arrow keys, ...

Send items to assembler needed for projection.

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I've been waiting for yeasrs for this to finally get done in vanilla, and I see now it's been REJECTED?! I would very much like to hear a dev explanation as to why, since this is THE MOST WANTED UPDATE EVER.

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If a request as big as this gets rejected, there should be an explanation, surely?

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It's because Keen is lazy, incompetent and greedy, plain and simple.

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It's because this request system is a farce. It's the illusion of input without any of the responsibility on their part. If they refuse a request, they can say 'well, we never promised to implement everything suggested' and if they accept one they can say 'see how we respond to community input?'. And the best part is they only ever have to accept things that are either trivial or that they planned to do anyways.

If they want to demonstrate good faith, at least explain why requests get declined. Technical reasons, game design reasons, "we just don't wanna" even. Instead they just mark decline and hope that a new day will turn the page for them.

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Maybe, and I'm being wildly optimistic here, they declined mgp here because SE2 will either include mgp or be irrelevent because subgrids are handled differently. Again, who knows. As far as I can see they didn't offer any explanations at sll?

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Yea one of the greatest ideas for an update rejected, but they are working on “SE2” so maybe they are focusing on ground breaking features for the next game.

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Perhaps Keen have programmed themselves into a corner here. So they cannot easily do it. That may confirm the "incompetent" part Axolotl has suggested.

Because in terms of game play I don't see how printing the complete grid including subgrids would not help in QOL.

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To improve the projector's ability to project more grids, you can try using projector support software such as multimedia and image management software to adjust and optimize the projected image Google.

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