multigrid support for projectors.

okay, you need to apply for one of the job-openings KSH has at the moment- you'd make a great lead developer...

its not broken, multi-grid projection for welding has never been supported.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough in my bug report, so I attempt to clarify it a bit:

Console: Multi-grid projection is supported, but often broken because of clearing the position of the first grid. This issue can easily be reproduced by two players watching the same console on a multiplayer server. If one player loads a multi-grid blueprint the other one will not see all sub-grids or see them at wrong positions in case the first sub-grid of the blueprint has a non-zero position vector. It can prevented by changing the original blueprint. Shifting all sub-grids so that the position of its first sub-grid becomes (0, 0, 0) works around the issue.

Projector: Currently, there is a workaround in SE's code which explicitly selects the largest sub-grid from the blueprint, so the projection shows only that one. This explicitly prevents multi-grid welding and hiding the other issues I mentioned. I guess they put this workaround in place after developers realized that sub-grids just don't come together for some reason they could not debug nor had the time to deal with properly.

If I am understanding that right, then you're saying multigrid projection could work, it just needs to have the lockout removed from the projector, and then a rework of code on the projector itself to "see" the largest grids (centerpoint) as a 0,0,0 grid value, and then adjusting all subgrids off of that point?

What I attempted to describe is, that multi-grid welding would need

1. projection of all sub-grids at the right relative position to each other and
2. connections between grids via the base and top parts preserved (entity ID matches) and
3. automatic addition of top parts (rotor head, piston top) when the base part is welded.

Zeroing out the first grid's position prevents (1) from working. (It also breaks console block projections, that's the way to demonstrate the issue.)

Inconsistent remapping of entity IDs breaks (2) by disconnecting top parts from their corresponding base parts. Rotor heads from their bases, piston tops from their bases and wheels from their suspensions. In addition, this breaks button mappings between sub-grids as well (cockpit, timer, sensor).

(3) does not seem to work, because no top part is added automatically on welding a rotor or piston base from a projection. It could be fixed easily, since that action is available already. It just needs to be invoked at the right time. I do it in my Torch plugin driving https://spacewar.se in order to build wheels on race cars, even if no multi-grid support is available right now:

motorSuspension.ApplyAction("Add Top Part");

There may be more issues with multi-grid welding, but they are not obvious until the above three issues are fixed.

I hope it is cleaner now.

still would like this to get fixed. Keen? Please

Just made my first ship printer, this would be so handy for building it on my server! It would be great for my mining rigs as well.

I just realized... you can spawn multigrid in creative. If you can "spawn a multigrid". Why can't you project it. Doesn't make sense. Please keen, get on this already. we gave you the answers you need to fix it.

The code spawning blueprints employs consistent Entity ID remapping and does not break any positions. That's why it is working in creative mode.

In case of welding the blueprint is going through a projector, which has some faulty code breaking the connections between the sub-grids as I described above already. There is also the problem of adding the top part of any rotor or piston welded from the projection automatically, so the connected sub-grids can also be welded.

This needs to be a thing, Keen?

I would like to see this also.

I already gave up and moved on. :(

Yeah, I feel that.

I figure the only thing I can do is add my weight to this suggestion.

Adding my line of support to this, multigrid projections should be in the game though

I have been waiting for multi grid projections since the projector was added lol PLEASE!

Should have been fixed and implemented along time ago, too many awesome blueprints for things as simple as solar tracking using rotors that this issue breaks.

I rather would like to have that then yet another dlc with more decorativ blocks.

thxs for putting it here this had to be fixed years ago but no the inplanted new stuff thats good to but the problems must be fixed before adding new stuff in

LOL! It won't happen if you don't ask.

He asked before (Other similar thread) and said he had found the issue and gave pointers (If I recall). But I don't think Keen or any company for that matter would share their source *.

* I know it was maintained on Github until end of 2017 but the fact is, it is now closed source

As for pairing of just doing this, it is a Priority / resources availables / other timetables in place for sure.

At least, this issue/request is clearly visible (Vote-wise / popular / trending, it shows at the top) so they know.

Definitely know about the GitHub which is nearly 3 yrs old. If he has the solution, then make a diff patch and send it directly to Marek! There's no need to have the source shared if he already has the solution. If he can't make a diff patch then I seriously doubt he has the solution. +1 for good intentions.

The problem isn't their mobility, it's the entity ID mappings getting mangled in the projector.

It would be fine if we had to project and build one grid at a time. What's hard is not being able to choose the subgrid to project. Sure, default to the largest, but let us have some way to access the other ones once that's built.

It's more complex than just aligning them. You can try it, project and align the subgrid, when you trigger the lock (eg locking hinge part into hinge base) on the projected hinge part it usually explodes or shoots it off into space.

Trying to make the subgrid on a merge block scafolding is equally disastrous, when you delete the merge and try to lock the hinge/rotor/piston parts before they drift apart Klang freaks out.

The lock process has too much infinite force. They need to make it a more gradual weaker magnetic alignment like connectors.

Give it another 3 years- it took them 4 years to correct some broken mirroring on a few blocks I reported, and I just realised a few days ago there are still a few more blocks that still have the same issue. They are hopeless and so far behind it's comical when it comes to even simple bug/issue fixing, let alone anything more complicated- even though the solution has already been provided by the players, they just need to implement it.

It cannot be fixed by a mod, it needs access to deeper levels which mods cannot reach due to security reasons.

It could be fixed by using both a server and a client plugin which could patch all affected functions, but that's not practical on the client side and such a solution would potentially break with every single update of the game.

I agree about the general slowness of development and the observably low priority of fixing bugs. They don't seem to spend any significant development resources on fixing this game anymore. Considering the quality of code it would be just a huge cost sink with inferior results anyway.

If I were in Keen's position I would just do a full rewrite with a good (stable, scalable) core design and copy over most of the graphics from the current game ensuring that its overall style is kept intact. It would even worth breaking mod compatibility in favor of a redesigned API.

I have a lot more ideas, but seems to be a waste of time to share them. They just don't listen anyway.

That would be great, imagine "Space Engineers 2: Less Headaches, More Game".

New interface, easier to fix bugs and programming blocks that dont require programming skills.

That would be the dream- a better physics and game engine too- one which hasn't been mauled around for ~7 years in order to do what it was barely able to do to start with. Bonus points if they sell the rights & assets to a dev company that isn't run by an Elon Musk wannabe...

It would work by adding a non-negative integer property (slider) to the Projector block.

The integer would be used as an index to select the subgrid from the blueprint loaded for the projection, as you suggested. I have seen the messy code selecting the "largest" subgrid. That would be greatly simplified this way.

Positioning would still be a nightmare, since every single subgrid would have to be positioned manually. Since subgrid relations are lost no way to automate the positioning, other than some highly speculative heuristics... But this could also be fixed, see above in the chat. It is just a matter of calling the consistent ID remappoing function, literally a one line fix.

I actually used a similar workaround before. I saved subgrids as multiple blueprints in creative mode, then loaded them on a survival server for construction.

The blueprint must be designed to make such gradual build possible, since one block (possibly conveyor type) must be placed on the piston/rotor/etc. head with the next projector on its side to build that subgrid.

Adding such a subgrid index to the projector would make it possible to build any blueprint.

If the subgrid relation loss would be fixed (I think it could be done easily), then the projector would know the correct position as well, which would be convenient enough to use in practice.

I think we can forget about it. Wasted effort.

Pressed Keen about this on their Twitch reveal stream for the update, alongside some other fellow players.

The reply was "We already said multiple times: No plans to do anything about projectors / subgrids.".

So there you have it.

It's one of the top three issues on here. They don't care.

Seems a bit disingenuous if you ask me. Given the fact that they keep asking people to come here and post feedback, as if that's somehow the avenue to get it to their attention and get the ball rolling. They even put an "under consideration" label on this post. Obviously it's not under consideration. The top issues haven't been touched for years and they specifically said on stream that this issue in particular won't be touched anytime soon.

Needless to say it left a bit of a sour aftertaste. Still does. But at least we have some clarity now.

Unless, once again, some hero modder comes along to save the day, we won't be seeing anything done about these top issues.

From what I understand, the issue cannot be completely fixed by a mod and requires access to areas that only keen can modify to truly fix the issue.

Randolph, thank you for posting the information about the live stream. I don't follow them anymore...

Whitney, if you look back above in the chat, I described there what needs to be changed. Problem is that not only the server needs to change (which could be fixed with a Torch plugin), but the client needs to be fixed as well to not corrupt the loaded blueprint before sending it to the server.

I have a general feeling that they either deem it to be too complex to fix (a time sink) or have other (undisclosed) plans to work around subgrids (so they are not needed at all somehow).

Up to date link to actual technical issue:

https://support.keenswh.com/spaceengineers/pc/topic/object-builders-sent-to-the-server-by-projectorsconsoles-contain-corrupted-data

i am keeping send this problem on there fb page every time they come up with some new stuff instead of fixeing old stuff this should be fixed from the beginning not in the near future

Multigrid projections should be the norm not the aberration. I have 4 hinges perfectly aligned with the rest of the grid and locked so they can't even move, with some equipment mounted to them that is the entire reason I have this ship in the first place, and so I'm forbidden from building this object I already hand built in survival because...reasons?

I hope "Under consideration" means "Under consideration" and not "Officially ignored"

I will go with "Officially ignored", this bug reporting with votes seems to have the same items that it had a year ago and very little response from official channels.

There have been game breaking bug unattended for a long time, and things that should had been in vanilla since V1.0. Its nice the idea of DLCs with new blocks and planets (aka big asteroids with atmo) but where are the basic things that matter like projectors with subgrids?

This is a nice game that need some real love to be great again.

You are my hero Viktor Ferenczi!!!!!!!!!! Hoping you catch some attention from Keen and at least an offer to help fix the projector!!!!!

We did, actually. Me and a friend built a matchmaking system for Space Engineers last winter. We started working on racing scenarios as well. There was no interest from players, so we closed it. Now Keen released the Scrap Race scenario...

The Space Battle system looked like this:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCkGxP666zfG1pvI1e_1BKjw

These days I'm trying to reuse the tech built for that and the knowledge accumulated about the game's internals to do something useful with it.

Dual Universe seems to be a better alternative to me, but haven't tried it yet.

What is you experience with DU?

Haven't heard of it until now, seems like a cross between SE and Eve Online, would try it if it weren't for the suscription.

Skip Dual Universe. It is no alternative to Space Engineers (at least not in its current pre-alpha state labeled as a Subscription Based Beta).