multigrid support for projectors.

Hylke Lammert shared this feedback 2 years ago
Under Consideration

It would be nice if multi-grid support is added to the projector. Now you cant use multi-grid blueprints in survival and i want to.

Best Answer
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i submitted it double by accident.

Comments (43)

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Hello, thank you for the good idea. Lets see how popular it gets by voting.

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i submitted it double by accident.

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This please!

You spend a lot time making a masterpiece in creative mode to bring it to survival and you get punished for using pistons and rotors...

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yup whe need support for that indeffenitly becausse sometimes when you whanna place something and it has multple grids it only places the largest grid only.aswhell a sort button on smallblock builds or largeblock builds

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Hello. Please, i have in the workshop a wonderful piece of fine engineering obviously relying on multi-grids due to its very complex nature. Contractors are complaining about the possibility to use the blueprint on the projector. I want you to consider how cold and loveless the world would be without my workshop item and ask you to solve this ticket ASAP because mankind deserves a chance.

Solve the ticket. Save the world.

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Oh god yes. this is killing me in Survival.

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multigrid support is really needed since most off the builds on steamworkshop are mutligrid becausse alot off players makes them so and also becausse sertain thing's are not only complex but also for sertain builds it looks more better also

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I don't know if this is a duplicate of another feedback, but I like to not only vote for the multi-grid projection, but also help narrow down on what to have in this improvement.

For a day and a half, pondering about the projectors,

I thought of this... in 2 parts...

Part 1: A selection list for choosing a grid from the saved blueprint under the Projector.

The Projectors can scan for grids and find the biggest one, don't they? If one does, it could be possible for the Projector to have a selection list to choose a grid from the blueprinted multi-grid assembly. In par with the blueprint grid selection, it should also scan for any active connectors, pistons, and rotors on its grid, like the Remote Control for Cameras. If it can find any of them, it should check to see if they have a head and if the connectors has locked to another connector off-grid. If 2 connectors are locked together on the same grid, they should not be listed. If they have a head or locked off-grid connector, it should repeat the functions on the sub-grids based from the founded heads and off-grid connectors, to see if they have the same thing. The scanning for stuff section goes to the Second Part below.

Part 2: Another selection list for choosing a connector, piston, rotor, or none (for itself), even if they're not functional and/or don't have a head or locked off-grid connector.

For the selection list for itself, piston, rotor or connector, if what's selected is headless, or connector is unlocked, the Projector should give a warning about NO HEAD CONNECTED or CONNECTOR IS UNLOCKED, respectively, and make the projected blueprint useless, just like the OUT OF BOUNDS warning. So that way, those who do more exotic weapons or contraptions of any sort in Survival have an extra Builder's Life convenience.


Is my explanation well-detailed? I'm just trying to make it easier for you devs on what to achieve for. I'm sorry if what I said is too much, or is said by someone else.

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even iff a projection is out of bounds aslong as its against a exicsting grid it still works when make multi part (space)stationbut whit real multigrids whe need the whole BP projected not just the biggest parts doesnt matter iff its has pistons/rotors or connectors

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I've been suggest by a dev to make the idea/plan I displayed earlier a feedback for an easy-finding.

Rob, I did say a selection list for choosing a grid from a single blueprint, which is part of removing the grid displaying limitations you pointed out.

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Please, please please make this a reality.

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Please.

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Might be a bit of a stupid idea, but right now, current ideas for multigrid support would, generally, involve redoing the projector code. What if, instead, there was an option for ships, along with 'make station' 'make ship' to 'Freeze Subgrids' - this would freeze all subgrids on the ship (so pistons, rotors, modded stuff like hinges), and in it's frozen state be made into a single grid. This status could have a optional checkbox on projector to 'lose frozen status after subgrid is built' perhaps, or maybe you'd just have to fully build the ship, and after the whole thing is built select 'freeze subgrids' again, and the subgrids would be unfrozen, to be able to freely move around again. While frozen, of course, all options for piston extension/retraction, speed, rotors movement, etc, pretty much everything except for on/off status, would be greyed out.


In addition to being a boon for multiple-grid projections, this would also have the added benefit of assisting carriers when transporting ships with subgrids, or freezing in place projects that use a large-rotor-to-small-rotor-head emplacement (such as for interior decorating or other purposes) by possibly eliminating much of the 'clang-force' that affects ships with subgrids on them currently, thus allowing for a more stable 'storage' setting (by freezing the subgrids).

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Immortal words of Piccard. "Make it so"

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Whatever solution would allow projecting blueprints of subgrids would probably also solve the problem where dampers don't account for the mass of subgrids.

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Or even the possibility that a Rotor or piston does not seperate a grid. Some of my vehicles are one vehicle but the game does not register as one.

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Yeah I'm actually getting highly irritated that it's been like 5 years this was requested. Maybe even longer and its still not fixed... I spent like 6 months designing a ship and now I can't even bring it into a server.

WTF. Come on Keen. I have to quit SE until this gets updated.

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Multi-grid projections are broken in both the projector and the console block for the same reason. I debugged this issue while working on a dedicated server plugin about two months ago and added the following bug ticket with my findings:


https://support.keenswh.com/spaceengineers/general/topic/object-builders-sent-to-the-server-by-projectorsconsoles-contain-corrupted-data


If Keen would pair a developer with me for 30 minutes via Skype, then I would be able to show them the problems I found via screen sharing. Maybe fixing these issues would not be enough to get multi-grid welding fully working, but it would be a step in the right direction.


The matchmaking system I developed the plugin for has been completed since then: https://spacewar.se


But we cannot support multi-grid ships just because of this issue, thus players cannot bring those nice rotor guns to the battlefield today...

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okay, you need to apply for one of the job-openings KSH has at the moment- you'd make a great lead developer...

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its not broken, multi-grid projection for welding has never been supported.

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Maybe I wasn't clear enough in my bug report, so I attempt to clarify it a bit:

Console: Multi-grid projection is supported, but often broken because of clearing the position of the first grid. This issue can easily be reproduced by two players watching the same console on a multiplayer server. If one player loads a multi-grid blueprint the other one will not see all sub-grids or see them at wrong positions in case the first sub-grid of the blueprint has a non-zero position vector. It can prevented by changing the original blueprint. Shifting all sub-grids so that the position of its first sub-grid becomes (0, 0, 0) works around the issue.


Projector: Currently, there is a workaround in SE's code which explicitly selects the largest sub-grid from the blueprint, so the projection shows only that one. This explicitly prevents multi-grid welding and hiding the other issues I mentioned. I guess they put this workaround in place after developers realized that sub-grids just don't come together for some reason they could not debug nor had the time to deal with properly.

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If I am understanding that right, then you're saying multigrid projection could work, it just needs to have the lockout removed from the projector, and then a rework of code on the projector itself to "see" the largest grids (centerpoint) as a 0,0,0 grid value, and then adjusting all subgrids off of that point?

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What I attempted to describe is, that multi-grid welding would need

  1. projection of all sub-grids at the right relative position to each other and
  2. connections between grids via the base and top parts preserved (entity ID matches) and
  3. automatic addition of top parts (rotor head, piston top) when the base part is welded.

Zeroing out the first grid's position prevents (1) from working. (It also breaks console block projections, that's the way to demonstrate the issue.)

Inconsistent remapping of entity IDs breaks (2) by disconnecting top parts from their corresponding base parts. Rotor heads from their bases, piston tops from their bases and wheels from their suspensions. In addition, this breaks button mappings between sub-grids as well (cockpit, timer, sensor).

(3) does not seem to work, because no top part is added automatically on welding a rotor or piston base from a projection. It could be fixed easily, since that action is available already. It just needs to be invoked at the right time. I do it in my Torch plugin driving https://spacewar.se in order to build wheels on race cars, even if no multi-grid support is available right now:

motorSuspension.ApplyAction("Add Top Part");

There may be more issues with multi-grid welding, but they are not obvious until the above three issues are fixed.

I hope it is cleaner now.

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still would like this to get fixed. Keen? Please

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Just made my first ship printer, this would be so handy for building it on my server! It would be great for my mining rigs as well.

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I just realized... you can spawn multigrid in creative. If you can "spawn a multigrid". Why can't you project it. Doesn't make sense. Please keen, get on this already. we gave you the answers you need to fix it.

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The code spawning blueprints employs consistent Entity ID remapping and does not break any positions. That's why it is working in creative mode.

In case of welding the blueprint is going through a projector, which has some faulty code breaking the connections between the sub-grids as I described above already. There is also the problem of adding the top part of any rotor or piston welded from the projection automatically, so the connected sub-grids can also be welded.

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This needs to be a thing, Keen?

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I would like to see this also.

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I would also greatly appreciate this feature!

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Please consider OP suggestion.

It is a bit annoying when you can create all these amazing ships and contraptions but cannot use projectors to bring them back to life. I often try to not use piston & rotors because I know theses are "one time deal" and they cannot be projected easily afterward without a lot of workaround.

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I already gave up and moved on. :(

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Yeah, I feel that.

I figure the only thing I can do is add my weight to this suggestion.

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Adding my line of support to this, multigrid projections should be in the game though

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I have been waiting for multi grid projections since the projector was added lol PLEASE!

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Should have been fixed and implemented along time ago, too many awesome blueprints for things as simple as solar tracking using rotors that this issue breaks.

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I rather would like to have that then yet another dlc with more decorativ blocks.

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thxs for putting it here this had to be fixed years ago but no the inplanted new stuff thats good to but the problems must be fixed before adding new stuff in

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Still considering this issue ?

Hopefully we get those multi-grid creations printable at some point.

:crossedfingers:

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Keen, please give me access to the source code and I will help you fix this. Or at least some time pair working with one of your developers remotely.

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LOL! It won't happen if you don't ask.

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He asked before (Other similar thread) and said he had found the issue and gave pointers (If I recall). But I don't think Keen or any company for that matter would share their source *.

* I know it was maintained on Github until end of 2017 but the fact is, it is now closed source

As for pairing of just doing this, it is a Priority / resources availables / other timetables in place for sure.

At least, this issue/request is clearly visible (Vote-wise / popular / trending, it shows at the top) so they know.

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Definitely know about the GitHub which is nearly 3 yrs old. If he has the solution, then make a diff patch and send it directly to Marek! There's no need to have the source shared if he already has the solution. If he can't make a diff patch then I seriously doubt he has the solution. +1 for good intentions.

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I would definately like to see multi-grid support for projectors. People spend a LOT of time creating these awesome ships and vehicles in creative mode, only for them to sit in creative mode only. It is much more fun to take that creation out into the wild so to speak, and run it in survival to see how it really performs. Evidently there are ways to get them projected piecemeal, but YOUR average player doesn't have the knowledge or skill to implement them, so they quit playing. In the end, that loses additional revenue for Keen, as they no longer play, and no longer by DLCs.

Yes, there are those that say "Too Bad, learn how to do it", but it is just easier to avoid the aggravation and go on to another game. So PLEASE, make the changes to allow multi-grid projections!!!

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Definitely 100% behind this one!

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This makes sense. Or at least put a link how to do it, eg. in good bot. That would give that AI a meaning.

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I think its an essential feature.

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I agree because then it makes a projector for a lot of builds now useless with multi grid builds being very popular, the amount of times I’ve done a build, blueprinted it and then had to rebuild the multi grid sections or find a secondary way of blueprinting them

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I also agree with this idea and add my own expansion of a possible option. Why not add a freezing option that when you make a blueprint so it is frozen in place during a projector part and then you can click to "unlock" the small grids etc for usage.

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The problem isn't their mobility, it's the entity ID mappings getting mangled in the projector.

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It would be fine if we had to project and build one grid at a time. What's hard is not being able to choose the subgrid to project. Sure, default to the largest, but let us have some way to access the other ones once that's built.

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It's more complex than just aligning them. You can try it, project and align the subgrid, when you trigger the lock (eg locking hinge part into hinge base) on the projected hinge part it usually explodes or shoots it off into space.


Trying to make the subgrid on a merge block scafolding is equally disastrous, when you delete the merge and try to lock the hinge/rotor/piston parts before they drift apart Klang freaks out.


The lock process has too much infinite force. They need to make it a more gradual weaker magnetic alignment like connectors.

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It would be great to have these things running on survival servers.

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Sooo, no more movement on this? It's been well over a year since the question was raised.

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Give it another 3 years- it took them 4 years to correct some broken mirroring on a few blocks I reported, and I just realised a few days ago there are still a few more blocks that still have the same issue. They are hopeless and so far behind it's comical when it comes to even simple bug/issue fixing, let alone anything more complicated- even though the solution has already been provided by the players, they just need to implement it.

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It probably never will be, it has been a requested feature since projectors were introduced, yet keen doesn't seem to care and has always ignored it.

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Just wait for someone to do a mod to fix this and then it will be implemented with little to no credit to the modder.

It seems that all the latest major features are mod mixed into vanilla (like "Easy Inventory" by DraygoKorvan or the hinges blocks) and if you are expecting a bug fix then its better to wait on the console community to have the problem and then it will be fixed (e.g. not enough memory in your save file).

This game could have been great but is now milked with cosmetics and there is a very slow work on very old problems.

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It cannot be fixed by a mod, it needs access to deeper levels which mods cannot reach due to security reasons.

It could be fixed by using both a server and a client plugin which could patch all affected functions, but that's not practical on the client side and such a solution would potentially break with every single update of the game.

I agree about the general slowness of development and the observably low priority of fixing bugs. They don't seem to spend any significant development resources on fixing this game anymore. Considering the quality of code it would be just a huge cost sink with inferior results anyway.

If I were in Keen's position I would just do a full rewrite with a good (stable, scalable) core design and copy over most of the graphics from the current game ensuring that its overall style is kept intact. It would even worth breaking mod compatibility in favor of a redesigned API.

I have a lot more ideas, but seems to be a waste of time to share them. They just don't listen anyway.

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That would be great, imagine "Space Engineers 2: Less Headaches, More Game".

New interface, easier to fix bugs and programming blocks that dont require programming skills.

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That would be the dream- a better physics and game engine too- one which hasn't been mauled around for ~7 years in order to do what it was barely able to do to start with. Bonus points if they sell the rights & assets to a dev company that isn't run by an Elon Musk wannabe...

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Just adding another vote because this is super important. It's a shame that this still isn't a thing.

Projectors and all gameplay around them should get a serious iteration. Multigrid support, better UI, better everything.

It would be worth it to make an expansion just for this one feature. People would go crazy over what's suddenly possible in survival.

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The voting system is a keen way to not work and fix problems. Oh we have a serious problem ? Well, we cant work on it, because not enough votes.


Still this problem already has more then 670 votes, but probably not enough fix it.

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I guess the reason why this haven't been introduced already is because of server performance, as I think projectors already has some performance issue? If this is the case then an idea could be to only make projection visible to players/factions with permission given to the projector.

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Would be nice if we can choose what grid to he displayed by the projector when its multi-grid. Because i can make a second projector for the rotor head with its drills and attach them later after building.

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It would work by adding a non-negative integer property (slider) to the Projector block.

The integer would be used as an index to select the subgrid from the blueprint loaded for the projection, as you suggested. I have seen the messy code selecting the "largest" subgrid. That would be greatly simplified this way.

Positioning would still be a nightmare, since every single subgrid would have to be positioned manually. Since subgrid relations are lost no way to automate the positioning, other than some highly speculative heuristics... But this could also be fixed, see above in the chat. It is just a matter of calling the consistent ID remappoing function, literally a one line fix.

I actually used a similar workaround before. I saved subgrids as multiple blueprints in creative mode, then loaded them on a survival server for construction.

The blueprint must be designed to make such gradual build possible, since one block (possibly conveyor type) must be placed on the piston/rotor/etc. head with the next projector on its side to build that subgrid.

Adding such a subgrid index to the projector would make it possible to build any blueprint.

If the subgrid relation loss would be fixed (I think it could be done easily), then the projector would know the correct position as well, which would be convenient enough to use in practice.

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Keen, please connect me with one of your developers to discuss at least the easy to fix bugs and the feasibility of selecting a subgrid by index for projection instead of just picking the largest one.


Please, please, let me help fixing it.

I still have all the code, IDE and development tools on my machine.

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Hey Keen! We have 676 votes behind this issue so far! I can help you fix it, please just give me a chance. It is for free. Thanks!

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I've just read the Update 1.197, nothing relevant to this problem. So disappointed...

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I think we can forget about it. Wasted effort.


Pressed Keen about this on their Twitch reveal stream for the update, alongside some other fellow players.

The reply was "We already said multiple times: No plans to do anything about projectors / subgrids.".

So there you have it.

It's one of the top three issues on here. They don't care.


Seems a bit disingenuous if you ask me. Given the fact that they keep asking people to come here and post feedback, as if that's somehow the avenue to get it to their attention and get the ball rolling. They even put an "under consideration" label on this post. Obviously it's not under consideration. The top issues haven't been touched for years and they specifically said on stream that this issue in particular won't be touched anytime soon.

Needless to say it left a bit of a sour aftertaste. Still does. But at least we have some clarity now.

Unless, once again, some hero modder comes along to save the day, we won't be seeing anything done about these top issues.

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From what I understand, the issue cannot be completely fixed by a mod and requires access to areas that only keen can modify to truly fix the issue.

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Randolph, thank you for posting the information about the live stream. I don't follow them anymore...

Whitney, if you look back above in the chat, I described there what needs to be changed. Problem is that not only the server needs to change (which could be fixed with a Torch plugin), but the client needs to be fixed as well to not corrupt the loaded blueprint before sending it to the server.

I have a general feeling that they either deem it to be too complex to fix (a time sink) or have other (undisclosed) plans to work around subgrids (so they are not needed at all somehow).

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i am keeping send this problem on there fb page every time they come up with some new stuff instead of fixeing old stuff this should be fixed from the beginning not in the near future

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Multigrid projections should be the norm not the aberration. I have 4 hinges perfectly aligned with the rest of the grid and locked so they can't even move, with some equipment mounted to them that is the entire reason I have this ship in the first place, and so I'm forbidden from building this object I already hand built in survival because...reasons?

I hope "Under consideration" means "Under consideration" and not "Officially ignored"

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I will go with "Officially ignored", this bug reporting with votes seems to have the same items that it had a year ago and very little response from official channels.

There have been game breaking bug unattended for a long time, and things that should had been in vanilla since V1.0. Its nice the idea of DLCs with new blocks and planets (aka big asteroids with atmo) but where are the basic things that matter like projectors with subgrids?

This is a nice game that need some real love to be great again.

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Actually, I've been trying to fix it myself by modifying the game client.

There is some progress already:

  1. Removed the warning message on loading a blueprint with multiple grids.
  2. Removed the selection of the largest grid, it keeps them all.
  3. Fixed the inconsistent remapping, so the blueprint should be intact (not corrupted).
  4. Got all the grids displayed, but it does not play nicely with the hologram code yet. Only the "preview" grid selected for welding is shown as a hologram, the rest is showing up as opaque but with physics correctly turned off.
  5. The grid to be welded can only be selected by a constant index, currently. Not from inside the game yet. I consider using the projector's Custom Data property for this as a temporary workaround.
  6. I could not test welding through grid connections because of (5) above.
  7. Could not test whether it plays well with multiplayer.
  8. It will likely break visually if any of the pistons/rotors/hinges will move during the welding process. Welding may not happen where the grids visually appear. I suggest locking all connecting blocks, so this does not happen.

It has been a bit complex to do this so far, most of the time I just manage to crash the game.

But I'm getting better at this...

unknown

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Sorry for the really ugly multigrid test ship. Just dropped one together on the go.

Never give up! :)

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You are my hero Viktor Ferenczi!!!!!!!!!! Hoping you catch some attention from Keen and at least an offer to help fix the projector!!!!!

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We did, actually. Me and a friend built a matchmaking system for Space Engineers last winter. We started working on racing scenarios as well. There was no interest from players, so we closed it. Now Keen released the Scrap Race scenario...


The Space Battle system looked like this:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCkGxP666zfG1pvI1e_1BKjw


These days I'm trying to reuse the tech built for that and the knowledge accumulated about the game's internals to do something useful with it.

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guys just give up, its really clear that keen hardly cares about what the community wants, look at the latest update it gave us blocks that should have been their years ago, if you want something better look for other games, like starbase and starship evo, they are 100 times better

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"We did, actually. Me and a friend built a matchmaking system for Space Engineers last winter. We started working on racing scenarios as well. There was no interest from players, so we closed it. Now Keen released the Scrap Race scenario..."

This game moves forward taking modders ideas and selling them like theirs... It's the selflessness of modders that keep pushing this game forward else it would be forgotten.

Bram, let that who still dream of making a better game keep on pushing forward and let the rest of us search for that something we keep looking for in a science fiction sandbox.


I for one I'm looking forward Starbase and Stationeers.

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Dual Universe seems to be a better alternative to me, but haven't tried it yet.

What is you experience with DU?

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Haven't heard of it until now, seems like a cross between SE and Eve Online, would try it if it weren't for the suscription.

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Skip Dual Universe. It is no alternative to Space Engineers (at least not in its current pre-alpha state labeled as a Subscription Based Beta).

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