Daisy Chaining Hinges Makes First Hinge REALLY Weak.

1

Kateřina Červená ●

Hello, Engineer!

Thank you for your feedback! Your topic has been added between considered issues.

Please keep voting for the issue as it will help us to identify the most serious bugs.

We really appreciate your patience.

Kind Regards

Keen Software House: QA Department

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4

Derek Benson ●

Hi Support, I think this issue is stems from this line of code in MyMotorStator's UpdateBeforeSimulation

float num6 = Math.Min(this.Torque, (base.TopGrid.Physics.Mass > 0f) ? (base.TopGrid.Physics.Mass * base.TopGrid.Physics.Mass) : this.Torque);

it appears that the force of a rotor/hinge is capped to the mass^2 of the grid it's attached to. I assume this is to prevent values that are too large from doing unfortunate things, but it messes up the rotors/hinges in a more complex subgrid scenario from correctly being able to apply the necessary force because it only takes into account the mass of the first subgrid after the rotor, not additional ones.

Hi Support, I think this issue is stems from this line of code in MyMotorStator's UpdateBeforeSimulation

float num6 = Math.Min(this.Torque, (base.TopGrid.Physics.Mass > 0f) ? (base.TopGrid.Physics.Mass * base.TopGrid.Physics.Mass) : this.Torque);

it appears that the force of a rotor/hinge is capped to the mass^2 of the grid it's attached to. I assume this is to prevent values that are too large from doing unfortunate things, but it messes up the rotors/hinges in a more complex subgrid scenario from correctly being able to apply the necessary force because it only takes into account the mass of the first subgrid after the rotor, not additional ones.

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3

Derek Benson ●

just to further add onto this. I wrote a plugin and used runtime reflection to remove this artificial cap on the rotor torque and successfully was able to lift the same amount of weight on subgrids as I can if I don't have any extra subgrids on the rotor head.

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1

Magnus Westin ●

Would it be possible for you to post that plugin? It seems this is still a problem.

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2

Toshiwo Araki ●

Hi, I have experienced the same problem, and there are other posts with the same problem.

Here are some (including this):

https://support.keenswh.com/spaceengineers/pc/topic/large-grid-rotorhinge-torque-using-small-grid-torque-values-regardless-of-the-displayed-torque

https://support.keenswh.com/spaceengineers/pc/topic/hinges-have-not-enough-torque

https://support.keenswh.com/spaceengineers/pc/topic/bugs-with-hinge

https://support.keenswh.com/spaceengineers/pc/topic/daisy-chaining-hinges-makes-first-hinge-really-weak

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2

Jonathan Langlois ●

I just tried making a welding arm. Worked great in space, good mobility, but to achieve that, I ended up using 3 pistons, 5 rotors and 4 hinges. In planetary gravity, I just cannot get the thing to even lift it's own weight. It's completly useless. Yes, there's a mix of small grid and large grid. I feel that using a large rotor in that middle connection between the 2 hinges would made the arm much bigger then it already is and would just have looked rather sily.

The last rotor is redundant and could be removed and I could probably removed , but given just how badly this is working, I really think that would make much of a difference. Removing other parts of the arm would definitely have an effect on it's mobility. Mind you, that welder has nothing in it, so I don't even want to think just how bad things would end up if I tried welding anything and it sucked in a few hundred plates.

I could make this contraption a lot lighter if we had small grid 3x3 pistons, but we don't. We do have hinges and rotors in that format. That might alleviate the problem, but ultimately, I feel like sub grids is something Keen seriously need to work on. There's a lot of very interesting applications for them, but right now, the limits of the game make them impractical.

58b6f1775bd1db0287c6ccebd62d7dcd

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1

PhoenixTS82 ●

Hi, are there any fixes oder workaround for this ?

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1

Aeppo ●

Large grid hinge attached to static grid, then 3 pistons then drill can't even hold in place (only trick I found so far is to set angle first, lock hinge then add drill and hope..)

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1

Tudor Versoiu ●

Is this issue still under consideration? It has been submitted 6 months ago..

Can confirm that subgridding makes hinges extremely weak, which is the most frequent use scenario, in which they are useless.

There are only 3 "mechanical" blocks in the game and I think this should be a priority.

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1

Laura K ●

Hello!

I'm sorry you are all experiencing this issue. Is it possible that someone could supply me with a copy of an unmodded save they are experiencing this issue with? This should give me a better chance of reproducing the issue.

You can access your save files by typing %appdata% into your Windows search bar and you will be redirected to the hidden Roaming folder. After that just follow: \Roaming\SpaceEngineers\Saves. There should be a folder with your SteamID and your saves.

Please zip the file and attach it here. If you are having difficulty attaching files you can optionally use Google Drive. When sharing a google drive link please make sure it is set to be downloadable by anyone with the link.

Kind Regards

Laura, QA Department

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3

Derek Benson ●

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1nql8ebOuv0IHmOqyGvwb-g130kciMbk-/view?usp=sharing

Here's a link to the world. It has 2 hinges, one that's connected to a piston and one that doesn't have a piston. Both have 100 heavy armor blocks stacked ontop. The hinge without the piston is capable of easily and smoothly lifting the armor blocks up and down. The hinge with the piston on it is currently paralyzed and unable to rotate at all because it isn't generating enough force. Both have the exact same force settings and should be more than capable of lifting the amount of weight they are attached to. I set the velocity of both to 0 when I saved.

As I mentioned in another comment this issue is because of a specific line of code in MyMotorStator's UpdateBeforeSimulation.

float num6 = Math.Min(this.Torque, (base.TopGrid.Physics.Mass > 0f) ? (base.TopGrid.Physics.Mass * base.TopGrid.Physics.Mass) : this.Torque);

The strength of the rotor is capped to the mass ^ 2 of the subgrid it is attached to. So the hinge attached to the piston gets limited to the weight^2 of the piston body ignoring the subgrid further attached to it. I have 100% confirmed this line is the problem because I help maintain the largest SE MP server out there and we have been running a plugin that I wrote to override that check and allow hinges to actually function the way they were meant to with multiple subgrids.

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1

Tudor Versoiu ●

Yes, this is the issue. Thanks to you I also found a workaround for simples cranes to work. Simply attach a gyro to each piston that follows a hinge and that should give them some power.

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1

Laura K ●

Hello Derek,

Thank you for the save and information. In the save you have sent me, the paralyzed one has already collapsed which I assume is from the issue mentioned. I understand how you have calculated the issue with the line of code. I will see if I can reproduce this with the information given :)

Kind Regards

Laura, QA Department

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2

Tudor Versoiu ●

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2

Laura K ●

Hello!

Thank you for proving further information on this. Is it possible that you could supply your save too to compare with Dereks? It seems like the problem has been narrowed down!

Kind Regards

Laura, QA Department

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1

Tudor Versoiu ●

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tx_sj8LyOtTHkPSyMnFDalZVSYZarsU1/view?usp=sharing

(7-Zip archive)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1LIfPFhAT1gUFVp3MX6naRwp-Q8w1SCFH/view?usp=sharing

(.zip archive)

Here's a link to the world. If by chance you spawn somewhere else(or use a special tool), here are the coordinates for the crane:

-632392.65 -775081.00 1702825.85

Try using the crane with and without the additional masses added to the pistons, you surely should see a HUGE improvement with the added mass.

Keep in mind that there's a programmable block for controlling the crane from the cockpit(Mouse swipe Up-Down for Hinge 2, C/Space for Hinge 1, Q/E for the Rotor, W/S Piston2, A/D Piston1). If you want to test without the programmable block, remember to turn it off so it doesn't mess with the velocities.

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2

Laura K ●

Hello All!

Thank you so much for all the information, screenshots and saves. I have successfully reproduced the issue with Versoiu's save this morning. I'm sorry this has taken so long! I appreciate all your help and patience. This has now been reported internally.

Kind Regards

Laura, QA Department

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3

OMG-Vert ●

Thanks to everyone for getting my post the attention it needed. Special shout out to Derek Benson. Hopefully we’ll see a fix for this in an upcoming patch soon.

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1

Faskimy ●

I'm experiencing this problem in my game as well. It's very unfortunate, though it is not systematically happening. Seems like when my drill contains ore or ice, that first hinge looses all its torque. Happy to see it has been flagged and is being worked on. Thanks.

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1

David McDonough ●

I've had a long-standing mass lifting limitation with my Pocketgear mod, and also with modded rotors where the strength cannot be increased in a sensible way and it is this same problem.

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1

Th3Jok3R 007 ●

It's great to see the issue finally being flagged. It is disappointing it has taken as long but at the very least it is being looked into.

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1

Dylan Vos ●

Any eta on a fix though?

I'll be armoring up my welder arms in the meantime to give them some extra mass

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1

ethzero ●

+1 Tried to make a double-hinged cargo transfer boom arm on a wheeled transporter.

Config is: Base Hinge > Piston x3 > Elbow Hinge > Connector

As reported, if the Elbow Hinge is remove, the Base Hinge operates OK.

UPDATE: Temporarily fixed by stacking three base hinges using this method:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahlqQ9_u6_Y

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1

Briggise Briggs ●

Bump in hopes that a dev will reply with a fix. Almost a year into this bug and no idea how to fix it yet? I love the game but you guys gotta help us instead of making players create mods to do what the game was intended to do.

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1

Mike Hiner ●

Also bumping, I was so happy when this bug was finally reproduced by the Keen team (after having to work around it for 6 months or so). But now it has been 3 months, a DLC, and multiple fix releases but this bug still sits. I understand development and prioritization but this particular bug has been my pet problem for a long time now and I would like to see it fixed or at least an update.

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1

Vojtěch Štecha ●

Hi, +1 I was not able to make foldable ramp. At least now with this info I can make a workaround.

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3

Michael ●

August 2021 and this bug is still there.

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1

LadyHawk ●

Is there an ETA on when we can expect a fix yet?

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1

D Hall ●

This one is probably a bit harder to fix than a lot of the truly-trivial-but-open-for-years tickets (in that it does actually mean some new logic needs to be coded, the horror), but it would be a nice one to cross off.

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1

James D ●

Dear Programmers & QA Support Team.

I'm a programmer too and meanwhile working as a senior QA software tester. I'm a huge fan of SE since the beginning. I especially respect that you guys not only put a lot of effort in your software but also respect a lot your community.

Therefor I am really SURPRISED and meanwhile quite DISSAPOINTED, that you are not aware that the problem with these hinges is HUGE! It's not a little issue since 1-2 years. This problem now last for at least 5 (!yes, FIVE!) years and I really don't understand that you still focus on cuddly SE bears and fancy deco updates instead of really putting this ESSENTIAL problem on priority ONE!

I clearly understand that with all the hard work you are doing, sometimes the focus on important things gets lost. Functional hinges - especially in connection with merging 2 grids (grid1 - hinge - grid2 - mergeblock - back to grid1) - would bring this game so much further! About five years ago there appeared a lot of great videos showing the huge hangar doors (airtight) with the double hinge + merger block technique. Short after that the hinges didn't work anymore after merging they break totally (there are enough examples in this forum on this issue!).

There are two simple solutions to this:

a) hinges should block the merging process and let the two grids stay seperated (but airtight!)

b) introducing a new rubber block which will provide airtightness, because it has only one connecting side (the other 5 sides have airtight function only)

So talking about solutions for this it's simple (I take in consideration all your experience...) and it is NOT understandable for no-one that this is not done with a hotfix immediately (please! this was posted 2 years ago!! Last updated by QA 17 MONTHS ago!) Come on...!

6 block openings with these TINY doors is far away from real cool docks. So PLEASE, put it to priority ONE!

Kind regards,

James.

Just for you to see HOW impressive it could be - if it only worked nowadays...:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=806098202

Dear Programmers & QA Support Team.

I'm a programmer too and meanwhile working as a senior QA software tester. I'm a huge fan of SE since the beginning. I especially respect that you guys not only put a lot of effort in your software but also respect a lot your community.

Therefor I am really SURPRISED and meanwhile quite DISSAPOINTED, that you are not aware that the problem with these hinges is HUGE! It's not a little issue since 1-2 years. This problem now last for at least 5 (!yes, FIVE!) years and I really don't understand that you still focus on cuddly SE bears and fancy deco updates instead of really putting this ESSENTIAL problem on priority ONE!

I clearly understand that with all the hard work you are doing, sometimes the focus on important things gets lost. Functional hinges - especially in connection with merging 2 grids (grid1 - hinge - grid2 - mergeblock - back to grid1) - would bring this game so much further! About five years ago there appeared a lot of great videos showing the huge hangar doors (airtight) with the double hinge + merger block technique. Short after that the hinges didn't work anymore after merging they break totally (there are enough examples in this forum on this issue!).

There are two simple solutions to this:

a) hinges should block the merging process and let the two grids stay seperated (but airtight!)

b) introducing a new rubber block which will provide airtightness, because it has only one connecting side (the other 5 sides have airtight function only)

So talking about solutions for this it's simple (I take in consideration all your experience...) and it is NOT understandable for no-one that this is not done with a hotfix immediately (please! this was posted 2 years ago!! Last updated by QA 17 MONTHS ago!) Come on...!

6 block openings with these TINY doors is far away from real cool docks. So PLEASE, put it to priority ONE!

Kind regards,

James.

Just for you to see HOW impressive it could be - if it only worked nowadays...:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=806098202

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1

LadyHawk ●

Several years later and this bug still hasn't been fixed. ETA?

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Daisy Chaining Hinges Makes First Hinge REALLY Weak.

Replies (22)