Unlock/Research Components Instead of Blocks

I see a valid criticism about micromanaging CBD when having multiple production sites and production blocks.

I can see 2 ways of mitigating the issues: making production blocks pull CBD automatically from the inventory system or using the research block itself and storing all CBD inside it, then all production blocks will be able to produce components as long as there is a single CBD inside the research blocks or even anywhere in the cargo.

Indeed, putting a CBD into every production block might be overkill, as I already mentioned here.

I still like having one CBD per component because it gives much finer control. The better approach, IMO, is not to insert CBDs into individual production blocks, but simply have them stored somewhere in the connected inventory system. You'd typically keep them in a dedicated small cargo container or just leave them in the Research Block's inventory.

So in your example, your main base would hold your full library of CBDs. Your runaround ship would only need copies of the few CBDs required for the components you actually want to manufacture. Half of the basic stuff produced by the Smelter, like steel plates or construction components, probably wouldn't require any CBD at all. But if you wanted to make compressors, motors, electronics, etc., you'd bring copies of the corresponding CBDs with you.

The game could simply check for the required CBD once when the production order is queued, using the same logic it already uses to pull resources from connected inventories, but without actually pulling the datapad (only checking if there is one)

Basically, CBDs become the archive of everything your current production network knows how to manufacture. They belong to an inventory system, not to individual blocks, and that also includes connected grids.

If you lose the grid that stores all your CBDs, then yes, you've effectively lost your technology archive. It's similar to crashing on a planet with nothing and starting over. That actually makes sense to me. Unlocking technology shouldn't mean your character magically memorizes everything forever. The knowledge exists as physical blueprints stored somewhere on your computers, just like your machines are physical assets.

Take reactors as an example. The impressive part isn't welding together the outer shell. The real technology is the advanced reactor components inside. Those are what should be unlockable. If you start over and build a new Assembler or Fabricator, it shouldn't suddenly know how to manufacture reactor cores just because your character remembers them. The knowledge should be something you physically own and carry with you.

I'd even argue the same principle could apply to GPS data. Instead of transcending forever in the player's "virtual" suit computer even if you die, it could be stored in actual in-game devices or datapads. But that's a topic on its own, which I will create next :)

Hey bnainz,

I was actually thinking about grid blueprints stored inside read-only datapads as well. For example, you could buy a standard ship design from a friendly NPC faction, put the datapad into a Projector block, and build the ship yourself.

This idea has even more potential for custom servers. Imagine being able to project only blueprints approved by the server admins, with manual blueprint projection disabled. It could be a nice way to restrict ship designs on servers that want to maintain a specific balance, ship classes, or combat style.

Anyway, back to your points.

1. AI behavior

Where did you see AI actually playing the game like real players do? :) I mean I wish they do.

I imagine NPC factions would use a much simpler system. Their ships and bases would be spawned by world logic or triggered by player actions and global events. There is not need for full CBD library at each station nor to simulate their usage or do any production at all. Think about performance impact.

At most, you could find one or a few random CBDs depending on the type of facility. Larger and more advanced facilities could have a chance to contain higher-tier CBDs. By the time you're capable of attacking major faction installations, you're probably already well equipped (mean far in progression), and going to war with them should have significant consequences.

Random encounter AI grids will typically scale with your current progression state so you will find blocks/components/CBD that are slightly ahead and different of what you already have.

2. New blocks and mod compatibility

The nice thing about unlocking components instead of blocks is that you never need to define how every individual block is unlocked.

A block is automatically unlocked once you've unlocked all of the components required to build it.

Basic components like steel plates, heavy-duty plates, tubes, glass, etc. wouldn't require any CBDs at all. Most structural blocks would therefore be available very early. Functional blocks would contain one or more advanced components, and those become the actual progression gates.

Adding a new vanilla or modded block is then straightforward. You simply decide which existing components it uses. If you want it to be harder to build, include more advanced components.

If a mod introduces an entirely new component, then yes, the game will automatically introduce a new CBD, define where that component is manufactured, how many components are needed to research it, and the game could automatically place it into appropriate loot tables and NPC traders based on its rarity.

3. How long does progression last?

Component unlocking is only one part of progression.

You still need resources, and some of them could be very rare or located in dangerous places that require proper engineering to reach or extract.

Without this system, progression is mostly about finding resources. With CBDs, exploration, NPC interaction, trading, combat, and salvaging all become equally valid/necessary ways to progress.

You could even have faction-exclusive components. Maybe one faction has its own weapon technology, and the only way to obtain the corresponding CBD is to reach maximum reputation with them. Those CBDs be copy-protected ofc.

4. 3D printers

I see onboard 3D printers as more of a mid-to-late game block.

A basic one could produce simple parts, while a more advanced version could manufacture most components. They'd be lightweight, low PCU, but be extremely slow and inefficient.

Their purpose wouldn't be mass production. They'd be there for emergency repairs.

Imagine you're stranded far from your base because your reactor was damaged and you're missing three reactor components to repair your main reactor and quickly charge the jumpdrive.

So I don't really see them as a replacement for the old Survival Kit. If anything, I think the Survival Kit in SE1 tried to do too many things.

5. Progression as an item instead of a permanent unlock

Progression is much broader than component unlocks.

CBDs are just one part of it. Your ships, bases, resources, reputation, production chain, and infrastructure are all part of your progression too. That's always been the core of Space Engineers.

If you somehow lose absolutely everything, including every single copy of every CBD, then yes, you would start rebuilding from scratch. But realistically, by the time you've collected a complete library of CBDs, it's extremely unlikely you'll lose every copy at once.

On multiplayer servers, once you join a faction, you'll probably gain access to the faction's shared CBD library anyway. And it creates some interesting gameplay too. Maybe think twice before inviting random people into your faction... industrial espionage and sabotage suddenly become real possibilities. :)

The important thing is that CBDs aren't meant to become an endless RPG progression system. In SE you usually reach the late game relatively quickly and then spend most of your time there. This system just slows that journey down a bit while making it more interesting.

More importantly, CBDs exist to stop you from mass-producing everything on day one or make you focus too much on traditional mining/production setup as you will need to go and explore/combat or engage with NPCs or other players in order to progress and progress faster.

"More importantly, CBDs exist to stop you from mass-producing everything on day one or make you focus too much on traditional mining/production setup as you will need to go and explore/combat or engage with NPCs or other players in order to progress and progress faster."

Yeah, a thing I hear over and over (from streams) is players wishing that the initial game 'struggle' to survive was somehow stretched out to occupy more of their gameplay trajectory they take, to some degree. We have the contract system (for unlocking tech) now that does that stretching, but it is not 'survival' anymore, but doing jobs for someone else (a government entity gives you access). Now, I find my loop one of ignoring production in it's entirety, and treating the whole thing as one block that I need to build when I satisfy the requirements to do so by contracts. Meaning...I rush to space, do a bunch of chores, then build out the complete production loop when done, scavenging/buying along the way. (edit - this is when your game 'actually' starts, when you start doing what you want to do, doing your own designs, instead of another person's...)

I still like my old idea I mapped out, appreciate the comments on it you had, components would have to be added in with everything else now lol.

The blueprint requirements is interesting, but I am hesitant to have 'ideas' for the 'tools' of production being able to be taken by other players. Creations made by players from those tools, sure, but the mental ability to make new creations, stolen as well...as a method of being able to completely steal the 'idea' from a 'mind'...dunno

Mitigation? Blueprints for creations, not the tools to make creations, to keep things even. CBDs for creations would actually solve a problem that's coming with the ability to blueprint anything in game, later.

do you ever think that specifically sourcing mechanics from other games hurts any argument more than it helps it?

games can be similar or have "the same" mechanic in it, but specifically pointing out things like that in a game thats so early in its development seems kinda.... off...

I point out mechanics from other game that share the genre, because sometimes they work well in THAT game because the game is structured around that mechanic. Other games have tried certain mechanics before and either they are not fun ( realistic fuel consumption or wear) or result in too much time sinking to be useful. All survival-crafting games eventually develop trains (or minecarts or ziplines) as an example. If the game mechanics allow it, people will make trains even if they have to cheese the game mechanics ( a train is really a truck on a guideway.)

No game is an island for mechanics. SE appeals to people play Minecraft just as much as they appeal to Satisfactory or Factario from that alone. Sometimes you want more complexity to feed the Engineering aspect and downplaying the parts that would result in players trolling or PK’ing just because that is easier for players to do. Which is why weapons systems have to be harder to build by design. If all it takes to get your ship shot up is building a weapon and manually aiming and firing it, and then respawn with a new one, there is no incentive to build anything. Hence weapons and ammo should always be dropped on character/players who die, but not be able to picked up by another player. A automated weapon should require more to build than an engine.

nicely put. thanks for that viewpoint!

@Kisai

Nice observation about blueprints being "given" rather than "researched". I think it fits best in a game like SE.

We are not scientists or playing a 4X game here. We don't really research anything. As engineers, we can find existing blueprints or schematics to build certain things. Or we can reverse engineer something by having enough examples of that thing, tearing them apart multiple times and eventually creating the blueprint ourselves.

So for anything more or less advanced, you should have to find the technology in the world rather than research it from scratch. No single engineer can research from nothing and develop a high-volume production line with all the necessary reliability and quality requirements.

Doing something like that is often a collective effort involving millions of people before you end up with a solid production process for an item. Just think about how many people were involved in developing high-volume production of microchips. Or really anything more advanced than a steel plate. Well, even that is not as trivial as it might seem, but for the sake of the game we can say it is basic stuff that requires no CBD.

So yeah, we are very capable engineers, but we are not all of humanity in one person.

two different types of the same thing. and if it were reverse engineering, some items are potentially "simple" and can be done with ease of one working example of the thing.

this does bring up the possiblity of what role RNG might play in unlocks though. i despise the idea that i could have a 94% chance of success and it just fail.

Correct, it is "research by example." The technology already exists in the world. We are space engineers, not space scientists, and this isn't a 4X game with a full research tree.

As an engineer, you already have the common knowledge needed to craft simple things. For more advanced production, you need detailed specifications, manufacturing processes, and maintenance instructions. There are basically two ways to get them: either someone gives or sells you the blueprint, or you reverse engineer it by studying enough physical examples.

So yes, you need multiple copies of a component to infer all the information needed to reproduce it. Finding enough components "in the wild" might be challenging. To find a component used in some high-end system (like advanced weapons), you first need to find an enemy using it. Even if you defeat them, you'll probably damage or destroy those weapons or other critical systems. And even if you manage to capture the desired block intact, it still might not provide enough components to complete the research.

In my drill example, I suggested requiring three times as many compressors for research as a single drill contains. That ratio can be adjusted depending on how difficult we want obtaining a Component Blueprint Datapad (CBD) through research to be compared to othr methods (like buy or find as loot).

Buying CBDs shouldn't be easy either. To purchase rare, high-end CBDs, you would need a very good reputation with an NPC faction. There are also several different major factions, each offering only part of the available CBDs. That means collecting a complete library of blueprints by trading alone would require building relationships with multiple factions, and in some scenarios it might even be impossible.

This naturally balances the two progression paths: exploration and the NPC "career".

New players will most likely follow the colonization path, complete contracts, and obtain the basic CBDs that way. From there, they can continue working with specific factions to purchase more advanced ones. Experienced players can take the free-form approach, exploring the world and clearing increasingly difficult random encounters.

It is also worth mentioning that exploration alone shouldn't provide access to every possible CBD. Some advanced technologies could remain exclusive to the major factions. In that case, there would be only two ways to obtain them: earn enough reputation to buy them, or steal them somehow, perhaps from NPCs or even from other players who have already unlocked access to those factions. Attacking major faction would ofc lead to a war with them, so it might be not the best thing to do in early-to-mid game.

All interesting ideas... If they can be implemented without necessitating the involvement of violence and questionable acts, it could augment the gaming experience. That said, forcing the player into predefined material objectives can also potentially stifle longer term creativity/enjoyment. SE1 had some concept of material scarcity, but it does it in a fairly balanced way. I would expect the same consideration for SE2.

I mostly see this in the same context as how it works in Subnautica. Where in that game you have to scan like 2-3 parts to get the blueprint, but it's otherwise permanently available. Problem in that game is that sometimes something is easily found, and other times the blueprint for something like a dive range extending blueprint (eg rebreather, larger tanks, upgrade for the vehicle so it doesn't crush like a tin can) end up being in those areas, so you have to cheese your way into getting them if you're not following a map/guide which kinda ruins the point of survival. The right way IMO for this to work is to ensure all reverse engineering targets are not static. eg they only show up on ships or bases that are "broken" rather than just going to XYZ coordinate and it's just there. Eg to find maybe a 10m reactor or something you'd need to either go through the research tree or find 3-4 "non-functional" 10m reactors on damaged ships on or in orbit of Kemik or something.

Indeed, there will be multiple ways of obtaining CBD.

Directly from NPCs:

1. Certain contracts will show you what CBD you can find or get as a reward after fulfilling the contract. Same as it now unlocks blocks. So you can take on specific contracts to unlock the desired CBD.
2. Building up reputation with an NPC faction will allow you to buy CBD. The more reputation you have, the higher the chance to find more advanced CBDs available for purchase. It is less guaranteed than doing contracts and a bit more random. You will generally need to work harder to build reputation and visit multiple NPC stations to find what you want.

You will eventually buy all the available CBDs that a single NPC faction can offer, and they will not offer them all. Maybe basic ones for initial progression, but when it comes to more advanced hi-tech components, you certainly will not be able to buy them all from a single faction. There can also be true pirate or renegade factions offering fewer but more interesting CBDs.

Random encounters:

1. Random encounters won't be as random :) When exploring planets and space, asteroid clusters, rings and so on, you get those "unknown signals" spawning. The type of those signals and the loot in them will depend on your current technology level.

The game should know what CBDs you already have in your possession. This information can be easily known by looking into inventories under your or your faction's control. Based on that information, you can have either:

1. A chance for a new CBD to appear in the loot tables. Very rare chance, I would say. Yet imagine the satisfaction when you accidentally find some super advanced CBD while exploring. Luck can and should be a factor in the game, and people who just play and explore a lot should be rewarded for their time.
2. Spawned bases or ships can have certain blocks featuring components you might want to "research" next.

Naturally, getting components used in weapons would be the hardest, as you will most likely need to destroy weapons in order to "conquer" the ship or infiltrate the base. Getting your hands on those components would be a real challenge.

Think about intentionally sacrificing drones to distract enemy fire while you are trying to sneak through the back of the base and grind down a turret from behind. Or it might be a job for more than one engineer, where one is distracting the enemy while the other is sneaking inside.

Encountering pirates or any hostile adversaries would now mean a chance to get your hands on missing technology rather than simply defending yourself and losing ammo.

Once you are ready with all the basic tech and/or go to specific harsh environments, the game can spawn true end game encounters where you have a chance to recover the most advanced components.

The "research block"

In order to reverse engineer a CBD, you will need to have this block and a sufficient number of target components.

We can fine tune the exact amount of components needed for research of each individual kind according to playtest data, in order to balance the progression and make it so it is not too easy nor super hardcore. This should also be easily tweaked by server admins to ensure certain progression resistance for different worlds and scenarios.

"Researching" CBDs would be a primary way to advance in technology if a player decides to avoid NPCs or trading with other players. Again, as an option, getting CBDs from NPCs could be disabled altogether if server admins or players in a single-player world decide to do so.

It is probably a longer way, and that's ok. That's the purpose. IMO it is good to slow down the traditional mining/production progression by locking you from technologies. You are no longer progressing from 0 to 100% in one day and then decimating everyone with superior power, without worrying about losing anything because you have a mega factory supporting you.

Building that mega factory would require technology in the first place, and those technologies are locked behind meaningful and increasingly more difficult interactions with the game world.

Want better thrusters? Prepare an expedition to a specific environment where certain kinds of encounters might spawn and clear several of them to obtain enough component samples for the research.

Now you have better thrusters, and you might be able to go into other places where you would suffer without them. There you can find some cool weapons. Now you can go into the very hard missions and get even better high-end tech.

Yeah, I was thinking about how we repair our grids during missions. Bringing the entire production complex always with you or a set of all possible components is far from ideal. On the other hand, if a small 3D printer block can produce everything, it basically bypasses the whole progression, even if slower. But now you also need PR (Production Recipe, instead of hard to pronounce CBD) sitting somewhere in your inventory system in order to produce a component. This approach basically allows for the 3D printer to exist without breaking the progression system or doing any other workarounds. Having a target PR, you can slowly print a few components required to repair a critical system and move on.