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Unlock/Research Components Instead of Blocks

4Peace shared this feedback 13 hours ago
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Currently progression is gated by production blocks, resources and block unlocks.

First, you need the right production block (Smelter, Refinery, Assembler, Fabricator) and the required resources. Second, the block itself must be unlocked through the Colonization progression. In Free Sandbox, on the other hand, everything is unlocked from the start, which isn't ideal either.

I'd like to suggest changing the progression from unlocking blocks to unlocking components.

The basic idea is simple. Production block has a list of components it can make, but you will aslo need a component blueprint datapad to unlock producing specific components. Each production block will have a (dedicated) inventory where you will place unlocking datapads.


Component Blueprint Datapads

Each component has its own Component Blueprint Datapad (CBD).

A production block can only manufacture components for which it has the corresponding blueprint "installed".

Basic components like Steel Plates, Construction Components or Steel Tubes could be unlocked by default. Those are common engineering knowledge and enough for repairs and building simple structures. Of course, world settings could optionally lock even those for more restrictive scenarios.

This means that simply having an Assembler and the required resources no longer automatically gives access to every component it can potentially make.


Obtaining Component Blueprints

There should be multiple ways to obtain CBD so different playstyles remain viable.

You could buy them from NPC stations. More advanced blueprints would require higher reputation and cost more.

Colonization contracts could reward you with Component Blueprint Datapads instead of arbitrarily unlocking blocks. The reward becomes an actual in-game item that you found during the mission.

Blueprints could also appear as loot. Simpler ones might be found in "Unknown Signals", while advanced ones could be rewards from difficult encounters and in dangerous locations.

Finally, players could obtain them through research.


Research

Research is performed using a Research Block.

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Instead of researching blocks (like in this suggestion), you research individual components.

To research a component, you feed existing examples of that component into the Research Block and at least one empty datapad. Then you order the research of specific component. You will see the exact number of components required for the research. If you don;t have enough components the research cannot be done. Mecanically, it is the same as producing any item in the production blocks. You basically crafting a CBD by combining certain number of components and an empty datapad.

For example, imagine you found a Drill in one of those Unknown Signals.

A Drill contains something like six compressor components, iirc.

If researching the compressor blueprint requires eighteen compressors, you now have an interesting decision to make.

Do you grind the Drill down and recover six compressors, then search for two more drills so you can eventually unlock compressor components production forever?

Or do you simply attach the Drill to your mining rig and keep using it until you find more later?

Research therefore still requires exploration, trading, salvaging or interacting with NPCs. You can't simply sit in your base and unlock everything from nothing. (Unless you turn off unlocks in world options ofc)


Copying Blueprints

Blueprints could be copy protected. You can "seal" the CBD at any time, making it copy protected, but it is a non-reversable operation ofc. A clear confirmation dialog would appear to avoid players accidentally making them "sealed".

Some blueprints found as loot or bought from NPCs could be copy protected. Others, especially those researched by the player, would be copyable by default.

Copies are produced using the Research Block.

You insert one non-copy-protected Component Blueprint Datapad together with one or more empty datapads and order more copies.

The resulting blueprint datapads can then be put into additional production blocks or shared with other players.

To prevent bypassing the system, Component Blueprint Datapads would be non editable. You can't simply copy their contents into a normal datapad or paste them in chat. They will probably contain an image of the component, a list of blocks they are used in and additional wiki about how to use them.

This keeps them as meaningful gameplay items while still allowing players to duplicate and distribute them once they have legitimately obtained a non-copy-protected version.


Why components instead of blocks?

Many blocks already depend on unique components.

A Drill requires Compressors.

A Reactor requires Reactor Cores.

More advanced blocks often require combinations of several advanced components.

This naturally groups related technologies together without having to define separate unlocks for every individual block.

Unlock Compressors and you automatically gain access to every block that depends on Compressors, provided you also have the other required components and production facilities.

The progression becomes more flexible and much easier to expand in the future. If you add a new vanilla or modded block it will automatically follow the progression gating depending on components used to make it.


Bonus idea: 3D Printers

This system opens the door for many interestin gscenarios, including having small onboard 3D printers.

Unlike Assemblers or Fabricators, these wouldn't be intended for mass production. They would consume more resources, work much slower and still require the appropriate Component Blueprint Datapads.

Their purpose would be emergency manufacturing.

A ship could carry a small reserve of raw materials (or even mine them on the go) and a compact 3D printer to produce a few replacement components while away from base. That makes field repairs possible without carrying an entire industrial production line everywhere.

For regular manufacturing they would simply be too slow and inefficient to replace dedicated production facilities, so large factories would still remain the preferred solution.

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Replies (4)

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Deon Beauchamp ● 10 hours ago

I like the direction of this post

The SE discord Overton window of peers is too small at the moment to get a balanced opinion from, many schools of thought have gradually been evicted, eviscerated or generally griefed into silence.

An open mind thinks that the elements of an idea are good and looks for ways to improve or overcome the pitfalls, a closed mind may be comfortable with the status quo and see new proposals as a threat, any means to discredit the idea is sort out.

I would like to see improvements and a relaxing of the current entrenchment on that board.

That aside keep up the good work.

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4Peace ● 10 hours ago

I see a valid criticism about micromanaging CBD when having multiple production sites and production blocks.

I can see 2 ways of mitigating the issues: making production blocks pull CBD automatically from the inventory system or using the research block itself and storing all CBD inside it, then all production blocks will be able to produce components as long as there is a single CBD inside the research blocks or even anywhere in the cargo.

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Marcus Parriott ● 9 hours ago

with this method would you need cbd for each component, in each different production block you make?


so, i have a base with "everything" then i have my runaround ship wich just has a gearforge and smelter, maybe an assembler, to keep weapons stocked, but i would need multiple copies of the same cbd for the two different grids production blocks?

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4Peace ● 8 hours ago

Indeed, putting a CBD into every production block might be overkill, as I already mentioned here.

I still like having one CBD per component because it gives much finer control. The better approach, IMO, is not to insert CBDs into individual production blocks, but simply have them stored somewhere in the connected inventory system. You'd typically keep them in a dedicated small cargo container or just leave them in the Research Block's inventory.

So in your example, your main base would hold your full library of CBDs. Your runaround ship would only need copies of the few CBDs required for the components you actually want to manufacture. Half of the basic stuff produced by the Smelter, like steel plates or construction components, probably wouldn't require any CBD at all. But if you wanted to make compressors, motors, electronics, etc., you'd bring copies of the corresponding CBDs with you.

The game could simply check for the required CBD once when the production order is queued, using the same logic it already uses to pull resources from connected inventories, but without actually pulling the datapad (only checking if there is one)

Basically, CBDs become the archive of everything your current production network knows how to manufacture. They belong to an inventory system, not to individual blocks, and that also includes connected grids.

If you lose the grid that stores all your CBDs, then yes, you've effectively lost your technology archive. It's similar to crashing on a planet with nothing and starting over. That actually makes sense to me. Unlocking technology shouldn't mean your character magically memorizes everything forever. The knowledge exists as physical blueprints stored somewhere on your computers, just like your machines are physical assets.

Take reactors as an example. The impressive part isn't welding together the outer shell. The real technology is the advanced reactor components inside. Those are what should be unlockable. If you start over and build a new Assembler or Fabricator, it shouldn't suddenly know how to manufacture reactor cores just because your character remembers them. The knowledge should be something you physically own and carry with you.

I'd even argue the same principle could apply to GPS data. Instead of transcending forever in the player's "virtual" suit computer even if you die, it could be stored in actual in-game devices or datapads. But that's a topic on its own, which I will create next :)

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bnainz ● 5 hours ago

Nice idea 4Peace, hope the CBD idea can be expanded to whole grid blueprints, somehow, as well. As an itemized blueprint you can carry around, and some sort of copy protection incorporated (maybe faction 'tags').


Couple concerns, though:

1. Is this system a.i. agnostic? Can I go to an unknown signal and loot/steal all the CBDs they have? Will they be stuck unable to make anything, then? Can I steal these from players on a server? If I find you, could I access your production blocks and steal all your CBDs? Can a.i. pirates steal from me? Does that require every production facility of the a.i. having production blocks/research blocks invulnerable to looting? (edit)-And most importantly, how would the a.i. progress autonomously with this...? Can this be used in a 'living' world?


2. We have a set number of components for all the blocks, so any block added by mods or expansions would be automatically unlocked, if we already have all the CBDs? Would that require a new 'component' to be released with each new block idea, if we wanted another expansion to the 'progression' of the game?


3. If I steal CBDs from an npc, how quick can I unlock all the blocks I would need? If there are hundreds of blocks, and hundreds of hours in a play run, how long will this system last the player until it is irrelevant to 'progression' and is instead a 'production' loop addition to their plans?


4. "This system opens the door for many interesting scenarios, including having small onboard 3D printers.

Unlike Assemblers or Fabricators, these wouldn't be intended for mass production. They would consume more resources, work much slower and still require the appropriate Component Blueprint Datapads.

Their purpose would be emergency manufacturing."

--lol, this sounds like the old Survival Kit. I make the case this logic should be applied to backpack 'manufacturing' and the Survival Kit, as a survival type of scenario ;) The thing you would use when stranded until you can get your base up and running.


5. Since progression is not tied to the player, but to an item that he has to carry around and protect, how is this really that different from the actual blocks he has to build/carry around, and protect? If progression was a pure 'unlock', then it would be a part of his identity, his progression, and would persist through with him on his play run, no matter what happens to him. It would be like his player 'level' in the game. A lot of players like this, as this simulates the 'growth' of your character. When that is removed and itemized, and is destroyable, that is like a permadeath setting on an rpg.

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4Peace ● 3 hours ago

Hey bnainz,

I was actually thinking about grid blueprints stored inside read-only datapads as well. For example, you could buy a standard ship design from a friendly NPC faction, put the datapad into a Projector block, and build the ship yourself.

This idea has even more potential for custom servers. Imagine being able to project only blueprints approved by the server admins, with manual blueprint projection disabled. It could be a nice way to restrict ship designs on servers that want to maintain a specific balance, ship classes, or combat style.


Anyway, back to your points.

1. AI behavior

Where did you see AI actually playing the game like real players do? :) I mean I wish they do.

I imagine NPC factions would use a much simpler system. Their ships and bases would be spawned by world logic or triggered by player actions and global events. There is not need for full CBD library at each station nor to simulate their usage or do any production at all. Think about performance impact.

At most, you could find one or a few random CBDs depending on the type of facility. Larger and more advanced facilities could have a chance to contain higher-tier CBDs. By the time you're capable of attacking major faction installations, you're probably already well equipped (mean far in progression), and going to war with them should have significant consequences.

Random encounter AI grids will typically scale with your current progression state so you will find blocks/components/CBD that are slightly ahead and different of what you already have.


2. New blocks and mod compatibility

The nice thing about unlocking components instead of blocks is that you never need to define how every individual block is unlocked.

A block is automatically unlocked once you've unlocked all of the components required to build it.

Basic components like steel plates, heavy-duty plates, tubes, glass, etc. wouldn't require any CBDs at all. Most structural blocks would therefore be available very early. Functional blocks would contain one or more advanced components, and those become the actual progression gates.

Adding a new vanilla or modded block is then straightforward. You simply decide which existing components it uses. If you want it to be harder to build, include more advanced components.

If a mod introduces an entirely new component, then yes, the game will automatically introduce a new CBD, define where that component is manufactured, how many components are needed to research it, and the game could automatically place it into appropriate loot tables and NPC traders based on its rarity.

3. How long does progression last?

Component unlocking is only one part of progression.

You still need resources, and some of them could be very rare or located in dangerous places that require proper engineering to reach or extract.

Without this system, progression is mostly about finding resources. With CBDs, exploration, NPC interaction, trading, combat, and salvaging all become equally valid/necessary ways to progress.

You could even have faction-exclusive components. Maybe one faction has its own weapon technology, and the only way to obtain the corresponding CBD is to reach maximum reputation with them. Those CBDs be copy-protected ofc.

4. 3D printers

I see onboard 3D printers as more of a mid-to-late game block.

A basic one could produce simple parts, while a more advanced version could manufacture most components. They'd be lightweight, low PCU, but be extremely slow and inefficient.

Their purpose wouldn't be mass production. They'd be there for emergency repairs.

Imagine you're stranded far from your base because your reactor was damaged and you're missing three reactor components to repair your main reactor and quickly charge the jumpdrive.

So I don't really see them as a replacement for the old Survival Kit. If anything, I think the Survival Kit in SE1 tried to do too many things.


5. Progression as an item instead of a permanent unlock

Progression is much broader than component unlocks.

CBDs are just one part of it. Your ships, bases, resources, reputation, production chain, and infrastructure are all part of your progression too. That's always been the core of Space Engineers.

If you somehow lose absolutely everything, including every single copy of every CBD, then yes, you would start rebuilding from scratch. But realistically, by the time you've collected a complete library of CBDs, it's extremely unlikely you'll lose every copy at once.

On multiplayer servers, once you join a faction, you'll probably gain access to the faction's shared CBD library anyway. And it creates some interesting gameplay too. Maybe think twice before inviting random people into your faction... industrial espionage and sabotage suddenly become real possibilities. :)

The important thing is that CBDs aren't meant to become an endless RPG progression system. In SE you usually reach the late game relatively quickly and then spend most of your time there. This system just slows that journey down a bit while making it more interesting.

More importantly, CBDs exist to stop you from mass-producing everything on day one or make you focus too much on traditional mining/production setup as you will need to go and explore/combat or engage with NPCs or other players in order to progress and progress faster.

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Kisai ● 3 hours ago

Eh, I don't know.


This mechanic exists in Satisfactory and Star Rupture, and while I think "research" or "delivering X to receive Y tech" in layers works for a game where there is no resource scarcity, and then even if you level the base, you have still keep the research. It works in those games because the progression flow is basically "refine resource, ship. refine resource, assemble item, ship, refine resources, assemble items, assemble more complex items, ship" until you get to the final stage which doesn't require unlocking everything, just the machines necessary to assemble the materials for the final stage. For Satisfactory, these are items that you can't make on the workbench. You are required to make all the necessary machines, or discover alternative recopies for the precursor materials.


There are two alternative progression points in satisfactory, finding the hard drives that unlocks alternative recipes, sometimes they are more efficient (Eg making pipes from iron and not steel) and sometimes they just make more product by using water in the process. And then there is the MAM which is is just a bunch of tech tries that lets you get access to some tech earlier than it appears in the Hub, and sometimes just gives you things for the player (eg tool upgrades/healing items) that you can produce with a separate workshop that produces mainly just items for the player's use.


With SE2, it seems like the blueprints/licenses aren't meant to be researched at all, just issued. Which is fine, except the way to get them is disconnected from the mission requirements. To give you an example, to be able to build the various cargo blocks, should be from missions to deliver raw materials or constructed resources, and thus the next mission should ask for materials in a quantity that needs the previously unlocked cargo container. Same with things like weapons and engines.


Right now the game lacks "sink" items, items that you make entirely to sell to colonists/trade centers. In games like Starflight, Wing Commander Privateer, and Elite (First Encounters, I think), from the 90's, the main economic driver was trading items (or taxi'ing people) from starbases or land-based trading posts. In many cases, the items that the local trading post wants, are items that are available to mine/harvest on the same planet, but not in large quantities. If you want to make a lot of money, you need to find the actual planet that these products are harvested or manufactured on. In No Man's Sky, the trading system exists, but there is no incentive to engage in it once you have enough inventory slots unlocked on your character to not need the ship anymore. Once you figure out a trade route in NMS, you just repeat it over and over until you have more money than you can do anything with. Starfield, your make economic driver is just looting enemies bases and the gear from the enemies. Sure there is a base/factory element in the background in Starfield, but it's just pointless to invest much time in.


My general preference for unlocking tech is to "learn by trying", or "fog of war" unlocking where when you unlock an item, the next item is visible in the tech tree, so you know which precursor things you need to unlock to unlock the next item. How I'd see this work in SE2 would be to have a "tech tree" for each ore series. Eg "Iron tech tree", "Copper tech tree", "Gold tech tree", and when you unlock say "permanent magnet" on the iron tree, and "copper wire" on the copper tree, then it unlocks "electro magnet" and also "electromagnetic motor", "stator", "dynamo generator", which are all parts needed for the atmospheric thrusters, wind generator, wheels, and assembly drones. Unlocking "gold wire", and "fiberglass" (under silicon) gives microchips. Fiberglass blades for wind turbines (an alternative version of the wind turbine), heck unlocking fiberglass gives the player a series of non-armor parts for lightweight surface or sea craft parts.


I like having a lot of parts, as long as there is a logic to why they exist, I'd rather something be slightly less accurate if it would suck fun away to be too accurate, such as fuel/energy or wear. In many cases, wear/damage in a game makes it less fun because driving around a huge craft, that gets flung into the air and landing on it's roof every time it hits a pebble because the physics treats all voxels as immobile is something I'm willing to go "driving around a million tonne ship, should just be flattening whatever it lands on or drives over." Fuel and Energy should, realistically reflect the time-acceleration of the game, but maybe not the the burn rate, otherwise it would make most ships immobile since you can't build enough solar to realistically fire ion engines or atmospheric engines without multiple banks of batteries. And right now you can cheese that by constantly building and deconstructing the batteries when they run out.


Hence a tech tree for energy generation and storage I'd want to exist where, "carbon", "iron", "lead", "nickel" (cadmium or NIMH (Nickel Hydroxide)), "Lithium", are all battery/module types that have different energy densities, and for generation you'd have solar (requires silicon tech tree levels), Wind (requires copper, different blade materials have different generation rates), Fission (requires Uranium/Plutonium), RTG's (Radioisotope thermoelectric generator) which requires radioactive nickel or tritium (hydrogen). RTG's would be something you'd find at POI's on asteroids. Fusion (requires lithium to build but generates electricity only if deuterium fuel is available.)


All that stuff makes logical sense to me, but to another player they just want the biggest bang for their time, so a lot of intermediate stuff is usually discarded. Hence why the game has to balance between "making many cheap things" or "make one expensive thing" in some solutions. Like a space station might have "many cheap things" distributed over the base to avoid having a single point of failure, while smaller ships that aren't factories might only have batteries and a single hydrogen engine for an afterburner.

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