The Obligatory WATER suggestion

Copycat80 shared this feedback 10 months ago
Declined

Many folks in both the SE and ME communites have been yearning for liquid dihydrogenmoxide for years. Yes, I know it will proabably never get added to space engineers, but Medevial engineers is different; there is only one, fixed, planet for the game. And because of this there can be a bit more leway on how water can be simulated. Imagine powering a mill with a waterwheel and a dam. Or imagine players creating their own ships and sailing on large lakes; or fishing. The possibilites are endless. Please concider this idea.

Comments (43)

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This is sad. Very sad.

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Why was this declined?

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João Mêda, Too much effort

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Water is a Must-To-Have!

Worlds without water are unrealistic and water is one of the most used energy source in the middle ages!

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Even simplest water mechanic would be a great addition to the game.

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... and that it is possible, you can see this mod...

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1447045862&searchtext=water

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This can't be true.


PlEaSe KeEn AdD wATer tO MedIEVaL eNgIneRs

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Declined??? Keen's people should consider it again or i dont see future to this game. Actually play in a world like earth without water makes feel an artificial experience. I supose implanting phisics for water won't be easy at all and the game actually have a lot of problems with stability online. But this project should be enough ambitious to realize it!! Thats not space engineers, thats medieval engineers and a medieval world without water is dead. sorry but im really disapointed.

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Ok time to be super controversial


Do we honestly need full physics water no

Do I feel water could be added yes


Question: Could water not be done as a voxel the same as the rest of the game with some special properties such as transparency the ability to sink partially into it and that you cant dig it furthermore to protect the illusion of water the nearby shore shouldn't be modifiable stopping player digging around it and making ugly water nor should water support blocks unless there small wood block which could float allowing boats :D


Im sure there are many reasons this is difficult but i feel its a good compromise you can then even add some effects to add to the illusion such as a splash decal + particles when players jump in what im saying is if you can't do it right fake it :D

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Yessssssss!!!!


"Declined" status should be changed now!!!

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WHY IS THERE NO OFFICIAL KEEN REPLY TO THIS THREAD? is this a circle jerk?

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Awesome!! there it's a video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5huKxsa79g

I tried the mod a bit. Isn't perfect but it's a nice start! I need more time for test it good.

For now the biggest problem it's about global water level. It makes found the water everywhere diging always at same height. That makes no possibility or create waterfalls or inclined rivers.

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+1 for removing the "DECLINED" status!

Come KEEN - if a modder is able to create a mod for water, why do you not are willing to implement water in ME. For the most of us it must not be perfect and/or physical correct. But for simulating a real world it would bring ME to a new level of motivation!


Please - consider this whish of your community and try to implement a solution...

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Hi Everyone,


A big thank you to you all for reaching out to Keen regarding water.


First of all, the work that the modders did in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5huKxsa79g is very impressive and cool. One of the goals of developing "Medieval Engineers" is giving players/modders the tools to create their own amazing things. However, we currently don't have any plans to implement water. One of the main reasons behind our current stance on implementing water in "Medieval Engineers" boils down to performance and execution. If we were to implement water, not only would we want it to increase player immersion from a gameplay point-of-view (transportation, combat, resource management, etc.), and look spectacular, we'd also want it to run well on as many PCs as possible. And at this point, we feel that this would be extremely difficult. Having said that, the game is still in Early Access, so our development plans could still change. But as previously stated, we currently don't have any plans to implement water in "Medieval Engineers". Thanks for your continued passion! Cheers! :)

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P.S.


We'd also like to point out that the quality bar for vanilla content is much higher than for mods i.e. we not only want features that are functional and don't sacrifice other parts of the game's content or performance, but also deliver when it comes to the game's visuals and immersive experience.

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Support: we wish more feedback from Keen House so really thanks for take your time to answer this post.

I understand the points. But anyways for me water its a primary fact in every game if tries to simulate a realistic world. Do you can imagine life in our Earth without water? No more questions.

Do you imagine play games like Skyrim or Mount and Blade without water? I don't.


It's true that right now with all troubles of stability and lag it's imposible to think about implement water. But i belive Medieval Engineers project should be enought embitious to first: depurate the stability and lag of the game and later add water to the world.

Sorry for insist but i really belive that water it's necessary if the project want to be really successful. I sincerelly hope the development plans will change with time and reconsider water.

Thanks again for your attention.

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Well i personally am verry happy with : https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1503751972

Maybe this could be a good start to look at ?

Yes i know there are no waterfalls and Floating rivers but Maybe there will be more :)

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The author of this great mod introducing a global water level says you can have 100 ships sailing and his work means no significant stress to game performance, so I think the argument this mod could be problematic for that has not been proven.

It's a bit reminding of the introduction of planets in SE. Fought against by KEEN, but then when accepted was the biggest advance in game attractivity and adding so much more content (without forcing people to use it). Same goes for water now on ME. Who does not like naval architecture and game play, ignores the waterways, everyone else is happy about huge content sailing your way.

And: 'Peaceman's contribution does not cost Keen a penny...

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Keen, I respect your view on this and appreciate everything you've done to build ME. 3 responses to your 3 points:

  • Your implementation of water would look spectacular (obviously - you have a high tendency to do spectacular) - so that's not really a reason not to do it.
  • Water will undoubtedly increase immersion; you've seen the mods added to use with the water mod, right?
  • Unable to make water work for low performance hardware is a diminishing argument because the low-end specification of hardware improves everyday at a fixed rate. Thus the low-end hardware will eventually rise to the performance requirement for water. So this reason sounds more like a "wait" not a "declined".

YESSSS!! Keen-implemented Water Confirmed!!!! Let's shoot for Fall 2019, eh Keen?

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In reply to "Unable to make water work for low performance hardware"

Our concern is that we will not be able to make it work for any performance hardware. Even the mod implementation of a gravity sphere has performance issues. Also, building all of those ships, dynamic small grids with thousands of blocks each, creates significant issues. I'm not saying we couldn't overcome issues but performance is another matter and we simply do not have the budget for taking on a challenge of this size.

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But you have the time and passion. And that is more than enough. :)


Even if it will only look a bit better than this mod everybody would be happy.


Risk something.

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would a smaller world size improve performance? i for one would suggest the optional small water world for those that so desire... we do not need a world size this big... without fast travel how long in human minutes does it take to circumnavigate the ME world? i think a single region would suffice, smaller world faster performance?

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Planet size is already too small. I notice the gravity direction change just by neighbour area. This result buildings similar to Pisa Tower.

A change in voxel detail would improve performance in this regard.

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Only a idea... what about returning to flat maps? Could this solve this issues and make it easier to implement nice landscapes with rivers, lakes, waterfalls and so on?


Anyway, i - and i believe that the mass of the community - don't expect physical correct water.

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a Medieval engineer game without water is like a space engineer game without space

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It's more like a space engineers game without planets. Planets were a feature that was demanded by the community. The entire studio worked on them for most of a year and the end result was mixed acceptance, poor game performance, and very little income. Medieval Engineers can't fund that level of development. We understand it is wildly popular with our current community but it would be highly costly for us and there's no indication that it would ever pay for itself. It is a completely unprofitable and unsupportable feature for us and it would likely put Medieval Engineers out of business permanently. It was never part of the game design, it is not necessary for the game design, and it doesn't add anything except a different and poorly supported environment for players. The game was built to play on land.

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Mistake

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Also was thinking before ME Support showed up that actually planets to SE would be the equivalent in change, in comparison to ME. But what a change it was. I am not having the insight on sales like members of KEEN may have, but I think I am not exaggerating when I note that planets was the BIG attraction added to SE then. Only look at the variety in planets the workshop comes up with. As an outsider, it is even hard to believe planets did not boost SE's success and pay off. Now, question is if that could be repeated with water in ME. Devs are pessimistic, as we see here. But water does not have to be reduced to a decoration feature. Like planets in SE, it can introduce new game play. Especially if you have it also as flowing rivers and lakes away from oceans, which adds energy source (mill) and food source (fishing) and a tactical aspect to deal with (water-filled moats, castles on islands). It is true medieval people did not dare reach out far on the ocean, but still, they sailed along coastlines and could do the logistic effort to ship troops and pilgrims across the Mediterranean to crusade. With shipbuilding, we would have added naval battles to our land battles, with catapults build on ships. Even combine the two. So the advantages of adding water seem endless in creativity, just like what emerged with planets on SE, with their ground installations, bases, atmosphere flight, tanks and what else people are creating. "Mixed acceptance" - oh there are always people who nag, no matter what you do. Those who are content you don't hear.


That "wildly popular" arrival of a water mod did not happen without a reason. Anyway, why not anticipate "wildly popular" attention of a wider audience in the future, at the fact we'd have a great water feature, at the time of release? Isn't "wild popularity" a good indication of boosted sales? Of course you have to emphasize it in advertising then. A good argument for the buyer.

As always, a good part of the work has been done by modders and only needs to get adapted by professional developers, to their "quality requirements". OK, no rivers, though, outside the global water level, true. But there are ways, aren't they? Meanwhile, watch with awe how people have their fun with that mod - wildly popular indeed. Emotions are important in gaming industry. They tell us something.

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Ahh yes - and there has been a synergy effect triggered by the introduction of planets in SE. This brought us also the planet for ME instead of a square map. So the use of development time and effort saw two fields of application at the price of one, as two games profited.

Same goes for water once implemented.


People are also beginning to cry for adaptation of this mod, or water in general, to SE. I am not here to advocate this, but I can think of other benefits water in ME may feed back on SE development. Give water another texture and some smoke and you have lava streams on planets or some acid liquid or whatever thrills the fantasy of players. A liquid of any kind. Could even be a new engineering entity, as coolant for machinery you have to provide, in another pipe circulation system. Imagine the perills when that coolant is leaking... etc... etc...

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Really surpised about your answer Medieval Engineers Support:

"Planets were a feature that was demanded by the community. The entire studio worked on them for most of a year and the end result was mixed acceptance, poor game performance, and very little income."


Thats really bad marketing for you guys. I would not buy the game if I had read this before. Then Why is the little income "Planets and moons" the first thing listed on the Features in Space Engineers website?


"Medieval Engineers can't fund that level of development. It would be highly costly for us and there's no indication that it would ever pay for itself. It is a completely unprofitable and unsupportable feature for us and it would likely put Medieval Engineers out of business permanently."


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_Engineers says that "As of June 2017 it has sold over 250,000 copies"

Let's make numbers: Game costs 19.99$ Let's say Keen makes 4$ per copy (Steam, Discounts...)

4$x250.00=1.000.000$

Maybe I'm wrong but i think the game was nice profitable for now.

Adding something like water, I'm sorry to say it so clearly: water is not small feature it would add 50% of fun and realism in the gameplay!! We can easy imagine how sells will work with a nice promotion and this fantastic game with water. 1M or 2M like Space Eningeers or even more because Medieval games are quite popular then Space games.


Modders like Peaceman or Equinox have shown that they have enough skills and imagination to take this game to the next level.

"It was never part of the game design, it is not necessary for the game design, and it doesn't add anything except a different and poorly supported environment for players. The game was built to play on land."


In the part of game design Do you play your own game? Did you try the water mod? How can you say water doesn't add anything? Do you check servers? Feedback from players? Check how many awesome ships have been published since the mod came out. Or just check screenshots in Steam: https://steamcommunity.com/app/333950/screenshots/?p=1&browsefilter=mostrecent (60% of creations are next to the water.)


When one company works for make the best producct possible is when makes the diference. I can't understand an Earth-like planetoid without water. You're saying the game was built to be a non perfect product. Bad marketing again.

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Is "Water" to ME what "Ladders" were to SE?

Basically we have to deal with a mod for it until ME is closer to launch then it'll be some silly "reveal" of "look we added water finally" :(

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well that means these castles do not exist:

https://castle-blatna.com/ and https://youtu.be/DiFX681rz3M

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%8Cerven%C3%A1_Lhota_Castle

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%A0vihov_Castle

so the question to Keen is do you have the pride to include water for the purpose as in history of your own people in building such wonderful castles?

even if water was introduced simply as a Well to add immersion (pun?) for the Survival aspect it would be necessary to any historian looking at Castle design. I would even go farther and say a Siege could be related to the under siege castle's water supply levels... a lot of fun thinking this through imho!

static bodies of water if only aesthetic would be complementary to medieval designs certainly! Moat Water for sure!

my favorite castle of all castles, and one i have visited many times since i was a child - this is a Castle made magnificent by its location on the lake >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chillon_Castle but sadly the message right now is that castle will never exist in a Keen medieval world....

These Great Czech Castles Do Not Exist: Blatna, Lhota and Svihov?

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By Kralpilot - Own work, CC BY-SA 3.0, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=35510493

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By Jiří Strašek - Own work, CC BY-SA 4.0, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=35053069

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http://en.infoglobe.cz/tips-for-trips/cz-blatna-chateau-the-hildprandt-family-mansion/


and sadly and a main reason i ever bought ME was to build this:

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By Bolla Ugo - Own work, CC BY-SA 3.0, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=15645207

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the compromise has to be water that integrates with crafting and survival at the least? can Keen separate the two just to mellow me out, that water as a commodity or resource can play OK but water as a massive planet element will not. drinking water is cool, oceans and big lakes not? fake looking rivers that dont move are possible, but rivers with flow and physics are too much?

as stupid as this sounds what Water role will be included?

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Merge the two games back together in an expansion pack. Allow players to build from medieval ages into space engineers. Include water in it. It will sell. You crash on a planet with no tools, ships toast, no assembler, no refinery. You've got to build back up from the medieval era starting with stone tools, while your space ship waits through the ages to be repaired. Would make good story line, and the game already hints at it.(even Minecraft has water...)

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Okay.. So official Roblox has water, official Minecraft has water. Official Medieval Engineers doesn't... (This is a bit sad)

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I feel this is all excuses. If a modder can do it, why not a group of game developers?

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After thinking about possible reasons why not as of yet, most likely reason is:

Because Peaceman is very skilled and dedicated to his mods (and server), and a modder has already done it now, though they could just implement the water mod into the game as they technically own the content. Like MC did with horses, and a few other things. But the water mod is far from complete, and Peaceman is still working on it.

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devs already said the type of water peaceman added is not the type of water they would add. they also stated at adding water would not pay off in long run. it would take too long to make it and the increase in sales and interest in the game would not match the cost.

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I didn't play it yet but Stormworks: Build and Rescue may be an example for implementation of dynamic water model. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYg1BoqNBZI

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Come on lads get your act together, gets get some water! even if it does not have physics and even if its only on planets, this is getting annoying now.

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It's happening!!!

Example of future high-risk but high-reward features:

  • Water for our game engine VRAGE
  • Rewrite our game engine VRAGE with parallelism in mind, being more asynchronous in its nature (parallelism by design), more data-oriented.
  • General AI for our games (NPCs, living worlds)

https://blog.marekrosa.org/2019/04/space-engineers-customizable-lcd.html

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This game barely functions with what it has, let alone water dynamics