darkness topic continued from Bug Test beta, long thread

ibisgrunk shared this feedback 6 months ago
Submitted

i have a vibe that there is a large individual difference in how much darkness players want. this is an opportunity to address lighting in general. a solution exists to satisfy those liking the new darkness seen in 0.7 beta and those that want the current status quo as it is now... let's use this thread to voice a direction the developers could find useful in their choice of how much darkness should exist in ME.

two ideas here, one is what items offer illumination and then how far is that light radius?

[and a quick shout out to this topic being on the old forums as well, and the workshop mod folks already doing stuff here (for ex. ref. "Sconces & Lights (V-0.64)]


imho we have four light sources currently: (a) the hand torch that we can walk with which expires upon use at 30 minutes (self crafted, (b) the wall torch, torch stand, and the brazier that always remain lighted (crafted metal parts or metal bar required, craft at table or anvil, assumed fuel source*), and (c) also permanently lighted are the jack-o-lanterns/christmas trees (character crafted, candle light as assumed fuel source*). there is (d) an ambient world glow attributable to distant rock formations, tree outlines, etc. that i will call the "world glow".

  • (a) Torches are the only light source to time out, 30 minutes until the torch expires... the hand torch needs a torch stand to place the torch in the ground (one could argue IRL i could make small stones into a torch stand as well, lets just say a torch stand would be a 2-4 stick character crafted item?)(to keep it simple stupid this torch stand expires/vanishes when the torch attached to it expires). the torch is timed as a source and expires upon use but this does not equate when made into a stand or wall torch. i would like the darkness slider to affect this light throw radius in particular, and a hand held torch should have the lowest glow radius of any illumination device in ME. one could also introduce a Lantern which has 2x the current light distance throw and perhaps include a fuel source. lantern stands can get fun and more complicated, but a street lantern is desperately wanted in ME! and get into the history of lanterns here: http://www.historyoflamps.com/lamp-history/history-of-oil-lamps/.
  • (b) the crafted light sources stay lit indefinitely and do not have a timed fuel. that should change imho, adding Charcoal to the brazier should be required to maintain light over a long period of time (using the Furnace for logic but a brazier being the most expensive of all light sources should come in several forms and i have no problem with lets say 4 charcoal lasting days and days and days - but then again for folks taking darkness maybe we should be more harsh on time per charcoal piece added?). the wall and standing torches should expire similarly to the hand torch assuming they are the same idea. as per (a) above the torch has 30 minutes to it and so should any torch in any stand, perhaps these two current stands would be permanent yet the torch put into them only glows for 30 minutes. makes no sense to have the two difference, UNLESS we take the lanterns and replace the wall torch and torch stand with the wall lantern and lantern stand... or a wall or standing torch is in fact a one charcoal longer lit light source? i would love for Animal Fat coming from dead deer be a fuel source for Lanterns... point being there are no permanent light sources...
  • (c) the simple candle light for which we already assume the jack-o-lantern and christmas tree have as their illumination source needs to exist on its own (included in some mods but the single candlestick needs to be available regardless in the basic game), i would guess that an engineer can walk with a candlestick holder but here is where i think illumination radius matters and a candle throw which is an official form of light measurement (see resources below) would be at least half or more of what a torch throws off). sure folks can walk with a candle in their hand but we dont need that in ME (although 25 engineers walking in a line with candles would be mind blowing). add the candle, give it oddly more than the torches 30 minutes until it expires but 10-80% less of the glow that we see in a torch...
  • (d) removing the world glow as seen in the beta does make for a more survival vibe because there is more fear, but note that for folks like me prefer this glow as it allows me to explore and mine at will without tiptoeing along mountains or dig pits unnecessarily. purely imho. the darkness world slider as mentioned by another user is excellent for any general diurnal or other server settings that dont match how we play... one day with a Full Moon mod going i would love to have darker world settings... or just give all new new players in ME a torch in their inventory, make the safe zone never dark, etc. all to enhance individual world settings. World Glow like other settings should be server optional.

Question is can we have multiple light sources for our engineer to hold other than just the torch? and if a dark world is coming can we have more options for how far we can see - imho the lantern vs torch vs candle come into play here... take the candle out of the existing jack o lantern and make it real please. add a lantern so we folks that walk in the light can see farther and hang from street posts!, and finally add fuel to the table crafted metal torches and brazier as they cannot be a forever light when logically playing with 30 minute torches...

general concepts:

https://sciencing.com/convert-candlepower-lumens-5997091.html

""Lumens" is a measure of how much light a lamp produces in all directions. "Candlepower" is the intensity of light at the center of a spotlight beam when measured in one direction. Thus, strictly speaking, you cannot directly convert lumens to candlepower. However, if a lamp or flashlight is rated by a manufacturer in terms of candlepower, it actually means "mean spherical candlepower." Lumens can be converted to mean spherical candlepower so that a lamp rated in lumens can be compared with a lamp rated in mean spherical candlepower."

https://www.diodedynamics.com/info/research/led/led-brightness.html

Measuring Brightness:

Lumens. The brightness of light is usually measured in lumens, or the total amount of light generated. Lumens are derived from luminous flux, which is the total power of light, which is why high-power bulbs are sometimes called "high-flux," To measure lumens, an LED is placed inside a sealed reflective sphere, known as an integrating sphere, and its light is bounced around in all directions in the sphere (integrated) so its flux can be measured at one point, and calculated into lumens based on the size of the sphere. LEDs vary widely in their brightness potential, and can be "dimmed" by running at a lower current. (Note: the reason some commercial LED bulbs cannot be dimmed is because of the power controller in the bulb, not the LEDs themselves. All LEDs can be dimmed with the right power supply.)


Candelas. You may see some LED lights measured in mcd, or millicandelas. The candela is a measurement of the total light generated and focused in one particular direction. This is why you might see a flashlight rated in candelas rather than lumens- it is more useful to know how much light is focused with the flashlight, not the total light, which includes some light dispersed in all directions.


Lux. Another measurement of light is lux, or the light measured in 1 square meter of output area. For example, if you mark off one square meter on your garage, and measure all the light that goes into that area when your car is exactly 10 feet away from it, you would have the lux measurement at 10 feet, straight-on, of your headlights. As you can see though, it's somewhat difficult to measure lux along a particular output, and you must factor in how far away the source of light is. Lux ratings are useful for light housing manufacturers, as they want the highest lux available straight-on to light the road ahead, but they also want some lux measurement downwards directly on the road.

Comments (9)

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I think a very good early game placeable light source would be a fatwood holder. Fatwood, a very resinous, slow burning piece of pine wood, was one of the most common light sources for the less wealthy population of Central and Northern Europe for at least 3000 years, since candles, even if made from tallow instead of beeswax, were pretty expensive (and smelly). Also, they were pretty handy for lightening your hearth. Some sort of early matches.

Fatwood holders were usually made of either clay or metal. This makes it perfect for ME, since clay is one of the first materials you can acquire after researching Smelting.

I'd say it shouldn't be an eternally burning light. Instead, the first available holder, made of 5 pieces of clay, should be fueled with tree branches (preferably the coniferous ones). They would also not be too bright.


Apart from that, I think that there should simply be a slider in the world options (and maybe also in the Medieval Master sun menu), so everyone (at least every admin) can adjust night darkness to their liking.

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i love the darkness in the new version, i am a convert to the new darkness and find it perfect imho. the addition of torch using barbarians is wicked btw... shoveling in the copper pit still has enough illumination to distinguish between copper and clay so its all good! the game at night is much better...

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check out wolfgar7474's excellent workshop's "Sconces & Lights (.7 Ready)" as a must have mod for those like me playing around with the new darkness. https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=939685392

the issue of darkness is no longer an issue of darkness. i am no longer scared, i do however run home as it gets dark regardless...

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We have increased the ambient diffuse settings and environment skybox lighting to the minimum required based on playtesting, player feedback, and Marek Rosa's tolerances. Hopefully, this achieves a feeling of dark nights without hindering the ability to play.


If you would like the darker settings from the play test, they are available as a mod from one of our developers: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1654601772

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If anything, it would make more sense to me that we'd need standing torches for mining as going any appreciable depth would become completely dark. And, it obviously doesn't make sense that torches shine through solid walls. I'm pretty sure that changing that would require a complete overhaul to how blocks in this world work; so, I don't expect that to ever change.

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there is a saving grace feature where when one moves from the light to the dark you can see well for a second or two then it fades into darkness... super cool and useful feature imho. if i flash my torch on and off i can get a nearby lit environment, and one i can plan for a little once it gets darker. add the sounds to the nighttime and one of my complaints about ME not having enough fear has been solved, also imho! (1) i fear the night, (2) i fear all barbarians. two things i couldnt say before 0.7? long live the fear in ME!

on a side note there are two types of torches, one that burns fast from pure wood like we have and the one i think we need which is animal fat or more of a fuel type non-wood torch light. if deer could be harvested for animal fat, or a byproduct of making a deer hide could be animal fat. from that we can get more sensible light sources other than just a bunch of burning twigs, the current torch... imho Keen needs to add a torch type, the Lantern, which takes and uses animal fat as fuel. Charcoal should become the fuel to all wall sconce and more formal castle like torches. putting a quick burning simple wood torch anywhere on a holder doesnt make sense imho, it would extinguish too fast... we need torch fuel!

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This game does not need Sconce wack-a-mole with a charcoal mallet. There is already plenty of busy work thank you. I do like the idea of an upgraded hand light though.

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I agree that I don't like a lot of maintenance. I even added a torch mod so that I wouldn't have to turn torches on and off when day & night cycle. Building stuff is fun and having some driving motivations is good, but at some point, it is going to get boring if we keep adding busy work. Imagine you have a large build with 25 torches. You're going to run around and add fuel to all of them? Admittedly, in the past, the game wouldn't even allow that many to burn. Probably still doesn't.

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I like the idea with the portable lantern, as an addition I say it would be cool if that lantern provided some sort of directional light, like a flashlight (using polished bronze mirrors), whereas the regular torch would still provide areal light as it currently does.

When using the Water mod, one could also use whale blubber to gain large amounts of fuel. * Moby Dick intensifies *

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