Gravel-Concrete Idea

Remigiusz Tomaszewicz shared this feedback 35 days ago
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Hello

I suggest to adding some blocks to the game, this applies to SE2 and SE1

Gravel:

In SE1 gravel is only used for 1 or 2 things. It could be implemented as a component for the production of concrete-looking blocks. [I love the look of a concrete base]

Cement mix:

It is created with gravel + ice (small amount) + iron(small amount) [as in real live], or leave the gravel alone (you decide)

Concrete Block:

You already have the concrete skin available from armor skins (Concrete Armor) [in SE1] or you can make a new one. Can be used only for static grid on surface (imagine a concrete ship lol).

And as "Sylarb" Say 3 Years ago. in this topic "https://support.keenswh.com/spaceengineers/pc/topic/23878-concrete-block"

"Idk how hard or not it might be to implement this, but make the concrete block only for stations/static grids, or just make it really heavy. Actual RL concrete weight is 2406.53 kg/m3, that makes the entire in-game large block (2.5m x 2.5m x 2.5m) weight 37.6 tons/block (making concrete ships very impractical). I don't think there is any need for Small Concrete Block (300 kg/m3), since you can't turn small ships into stations (I think so).

Also... idk about the difficulty of implementing this one either, but make the block gains its weight only after it is fully built (imagine you're just flying your ship and a random dude just comes and spams concrete block scaffolding on it, making it drop faster than the US economy in 2008 -_- ), or the block weight is proportional to its build state (0%-0, 50%-18.8 tons, 100%-37.6 tons)."


Or also you can speak with steam workshop creator "https://steamcommunity.com/id/enenra". To make a implement His idea [If he agrees of course], as He make "AQD - Concrete"- Mod to SE1 "https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2298956701"


Lets discuss These idea

Until then, keep up the awesome work Keen

Best Answer
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For SE2, water is planned. Then some ballast might be useful to adjust the center of gravity of your ships.

Replies (2)

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2

For starters, there is a similar mod in SE1 (Concrete by Digi). I really like that one and making it a standard part of the game would be a good idea for both SE1 and SE2. Maybe with adjusting the ingredients, I like the idea of requiring ice. That makes it a bit less trivial to build with concrete.


Considering the cement mix, cement as such does not contain iron. That comes into play as rebar if you build with that.


Finally, concrete is supposed to be heavy. Using it only on stations makes sense to me (unless you want some ballast for your ship).

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"Concrete by Digi"

I need to see this then.

"I really like that one and making it a standard part of the game would"

i have the same feelings.

"Considering the cement mix, cement as such does not contain iron. That comes into play as rebar if you build with that."

Yea i mean that, but I didn't think that it could be a separate element.

"unless you want some ballast for your ship"

yeah, because ships in SE1 have to be balanced (sarcasm)

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2

For SE2, water is planned. Then some ballast might be useful to adjust the center of gravity of your ships.

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1

Yes you are right about this. For SE1 they might user ice

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3

Concrete could take two basic forms:

- voxel material, deposited by some kind of "sprayer" (as in Digi's SE1 plugin) the strength/durability would be equivalent to normal rock (stone, as voxel material)

- "block material", deposited "traditionally", like other armour blocks

Both materials would have the same source material

- gravel, or crushed stone, or "waste" stone (slag) from the refinery

- cement produced in some suitable facility

- Optionally, water (which may cause resource problems on some planets)

The material for making the blocks could include steel (steel reinforcement) and have multiples more strength/durability

Concrete blocks should be very heavy - many times heavier than heavy armour blocks and there should be a mechanism to prevent them from being used on moving grids.


Material consumption for voxel formation and block construction should be roughly the same for the same volume.

Steel consumption should depend on the type of block - there should be blocks without reinforcement as "masonry", blocks with light reinforcement as "structural concrete" and blocks with heavy reinforcement as "fortification concrete"

Destroying the blocks would yield gravel or crushed rock and scrap (usable as raw material for steel).


If concrete were involved in to game, a similar mechanism could be used for stone.

Again in two forms, as a voxel material and as a block material (remelted stone/basalt).

The main characteristic of blocks made of remelted stone should be very high resistance to fire and heat - they are not damaged by rocket engines. Secondarily - high strength and high impact resistance in slow speed. Primarily they would be designed for landing areas.

Blocks, as with concrete, would be characterized by high weight.


A third material of a similar type could be "synthetic ceramics".

A material similar to remelted stone, but made, for example, only from aluminum ore (i.e. synthetic corundum), and steel reinforcements and mounting elements.

It would have a high weight and very high strength and heat resistance. It could also be used for movable grids.

A limitation would be, for example, a limited number of shapes - only flat plates, not solid blocks, and the inability to mount other blocks on the outside of the plate.

Destroying the blocks would yield gravel or crushed rock and scrap (usable as raw material for steel).

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2

I forced myself to look into the game...

The large grid block in SE1 has a volume of 15.625 m^3 - a 2.5x2.5x2.5 m cube.

The light armoured block (cube) weighs 500 kg and has a resistance of 2500 units.

-> 32 kg/m^3, 160 units per m^3, 5 units per kilogram of mass. Its components have a volume of 75 litres (and this corresponds to a 2.5m cube welded from sheets thinner than 2mm. Elon starts smoking nervously...)

The heavy armour block weighs 3300 kg and has a resistance of 16500 units.

-> 210 kg/m^3, 1054 units per m^3, 5.02 units per kilogram of mass. Its components have a volume of 1200 liters (1.2 m^3, 76.8 liters /m^3 or else - they make up ~7% of the volume)


Assume a block of large grid filled with reinforced concrete. The density of reinforced concrete is usually calculated to be 2500kg/m^3. Reinforced concrete for fortifications up to 2800kg/m^3.

Then the block of large grid (2.5m) will weigh 39-44 tons.

Let's calculate, as above, 5 units of resistance per kilogram of weight -> 195,000-220,000 units of resistance. Probably a bit too much...

OK, let's count only 2.5 units of resistance per kilogram of weight -> 97,500-110,000 units of resistance...

-> 2500-2800kg/m>^3, 6240-7040 units per m^3

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2

Sizes and weights in SE1 tend to be a bit wonky. But concrete in general is not even near the level of steel in toughness. I think it would be at least semi-realistic to give the concrete block the same resistance as the heavy armor block. It would then work as a cheap fortification material (all that gravel needs to go somewhere) or maybe as ballast if you need something heavy.

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2

The mechanism of penetration when hitting steel armour (or metal in general) and when hitting concrete and stone are fundamentally different.

Moreover, the “armour” blocks in the SE1 game are not homogeneous, but represent a complex, relatively thin-walled structure.

This is well demonstrated by the mass of the “heavy armour” block, where metal fills only 7% of the block volume - in the case of the SE1 block of the 2.5m grid, this means that the real equivalent thickness of metal is only 17.5cm, and in the case of the “light armour” block it is even only roughly 1cm of metal.

By contrast, a “super-heavy” block filled with concrete or stone is actually 2.5 metres of concrete or stone with metal reinforcement.

So even with several times the penetrating power of an incoming projectile against concrete, the projectile will only penetrate a small depth of the concrete block thickness.

It has been reported that the penetration of conventional armour piercing projectiles in reinforced concrete is only 2-3 times the penetration in steel RHA armour. Even modern APFSDS projectiles or cumulative charges (shaped/hollow charge) are not significantly better off - penetration does not exceed 3-5 times that of RHA.

In the pre-WWII period, special "anti-concrete" shells were introduced in artillery, differing in design from both anti-tank/anti-armor ammunition and conventional explosive ammunition. Thanks to the special shaping of the front part of the projectile, they penetrate deeper into the concrete (depending on the type and calibre, 0.5-1.2m) and thanks to the large charge fired from the rear, the detonation wave penetrates another 0.3-0.6m of reinforced concrete.

anti-concrete-shells-german-ww2-q5

The 210mm projectile is older in design (possibly from WWI), the 150mm projectile is more modern, probably from the 1930s, and shows the distinctive head shape of the projectile "blunt with a small plate"


Nowadays, such designs are found in some aerial bombs and in some cruise missiles; in artillery they have been almost completely abandoned due to the lack of targets within range of the artillery.

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2

After diving into some pretty deep rabbit hole about historical armor penetration, I think you are by and large right. My new guesstimate is that a more realistic resistance number for the concrete block would be 2* 16500 = 33000 units.

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2

That would be a bit low even for simple cast-in-place concrete without reinforcement. But so be it...

How about this?

Cast concrete, without reinforcement - density 2200kg/m3, block weight 34375kg, resistance 1500 (1000) units per m^3, block resistance 23437 (15625) units. Concrete mix only, no metal used. The same concrete would be placed using the "voxel hand" mechanism as voxel material.

Reinforced concrete with simple reinforcement - density 2400kg/m3, block weight 37500kg, resistance 3000 (2000) units per m^3, block resistance 46875 (31250) units. The block contains 500kg of metal reinforcement (32kg/m^3).

Reinforced concrete for fortifications - 2800kg/m^3, block weight 43750kg, resistance 6000 (4000) units per m^3, block resistance 93750 (62500) units. The block contains 3000kg of metal reinforcement (192kg/m^3).

The principle is that the reinforced concrete block contains within itself the equivalent of a block of light or heavy metal armour.

Note 1: the steel plate and the thin-bar steel mesh should have roughly the same weight per area unit.

Note 2: The construction material is transferred by the engineer, so the construction of concrete blocks in manual mode is slow and laborious, time-consuming. This “effort” should be adequately rewarded.

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1

Semtex and Rabiator. I like your discussion, Even in our real world, there are different types of concrete from regular screed to structural concrete or concrete for bunkers.

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