Ingots - Keep them in
Not Enough Votes
Hi there,
Just giving some feedback about the smelter.
Just reading the recent update - SE2 will have a smelter and skip the ingot creation step. I personally like having an ingot step. I think it is good to have lots of things to do while on a long distance journey so you can be moving stuff around to refineries, smelters, assemblers etc etc while the spaceship flies towards a planet.
Not only that, but I was looking forward to stockpiling ingots in SE2. For me, it is very important to my enjoyment of the game.
Please keep the ingot step ingame. A lot of people seem to want it to be kept in.
I like this feedback
Please leave the Ingots as a step in production. I for one feel that more industry is a good thing. I'm certainly not asking for satisfactory levels of industry but being able to make large industrial looking ships or structures is always nice
But besides just wanting more industry having the ingots as an intermediate step between the raw unprocessed ores and components makes for easier stockpiling and storage
Please leave the Ingots as a step in production. I for one feel that more industry is a good thing. I'm certainly not asking for satisfactory levels of industry but being able to make large industrial looking ships or structures is always nice
But besides just wanting more industry having the ingots as an intermediate step between the raw unprocessed ores and components makes for easier stockpiling and storage
Ingots are the logical thing and removing them is a solution in search for a problem.
The point of them is to create a standard for material input for the creation of different simple components that is very dense, to maximize the amount stored per volume, and very compact, to minimize rotational inertia (for turning when you are holding them) and reduce other problems like having to watch out both far-away ends so you don't hit something (in the case of tubes) or so it doesn't get snagged on something (wire). Also, almost all materials can have the same shape, which simplifies storage and creates uniformity. Ingots are a solution for so many problems, and that's the beauty of them.
Why did you think it necessary to remove a step of the industrial process? The current one is too simple and fast already: last year with friends we wanted to do the classical run from the Earth to space, and the planetary stage was almost instant, with no real reason to keep a base on the ground. There is zero struggle, which is what would produce fun. Instead, we breeze through the progression and then for most people there's nothing to do. Instead of the current concept, you should have two block types, refinery/smelter and assembler. The first would turn ores into ingots, with internal or external tiers (modules, or basic/normal/advanced types for say iron, silicon, or uranium), and the second would turn ingots into components, also with internal or external tiers (modules, or basic/normal/advanced types for, for example, plates, computers, and turbines). The formula was already perfect in SE 1.
Ingots are the logical thing and removing them is a solution in search for a problem.
The point of them is to create a standard for material input for the creation of different simple components that is very dense, to maximize the amount stored per volume, and very compact, to minimize rotational inertia (for turning when you are holding them) and reduce other problems like having to watch out both far-away ends so you don't hit something (in the case of tubes) or so it doesn't get snagged on something (wire). Also, almost all materials can have the same shape, which simplifies storage and creates uniformity. Ingots are a solution for so many problems, and that's the beauty of them.
Why did you think it necessary to remove a step of the industrial process? The current one is too simple and fast already: last year with friends we wanted to do the classical run from the Earth to space, and the planetary stage was almost instant, with no real reason to keep a base on the ground. There is zero struggle, which is what would produce fun. Instead, we breeze through the progression and then for most people there's nothing to do. Instead of the current concept, you should have two block types, refinery/smelter and assembler. The first would turn ores into ingots, with internal or external tiers (modules, or basic/normal/advanced types for say iron, silicon, or uranium), and the second would turn ingots into components, also with internal or external tiers (modules, or basic/normal/advanced types for, for example, plates, computers, and turbines). The formula was already perfect in SE 1.
I would add that it would be cool to have storage for ingots that allows you to visually see them. For example, ingot racks.
I would add that it would be cool to have storage for ingots that allows you to visually see them. For example, ingot racks.
From my understanding when first hints of SE2 started to be given, the game was supposed to be a space engineers game, just with a newer engine.
Now you people are changing everything that functioned well thus far, for no clear reason? You changed menus, tools, block and engineers looks for what? a waste of time.
And i bet in time, it gets to keep all the same bugs as SE1 has, in a new and facelift package.
From my understanding when first hints of SE2 started to be given, the game was supposed to be a space engineers game, just with a newer engine.
Now you people are changing everything that functioned well thus far, for no clear reason? You changed menus, tools, block and engineers looks for what? a waste of time.
And i bet in time, it gets to keep all the same bugs as SE1 has, in a new and facelift package.
Removing ingots is a moronic idea that dumbs the game down too much. Maybe they will surprise me but I'm not holding my breath on this. It doesn't matter whether it's today, or 10k years from now, rarely can we use raw materials straight out of the ground due to impurities and so on. If we tried our buildings would crumble and so on. The refining process exists irl to remove impurities and get to a universal standard material we can actually use. Not only this but having a "smelter" implies you're melting it down to refine anyways, so you're not removing the refinement step at all as you claim, you're just changing which part of it is visible to players. Currently in SE1 we have the physical metal bars that are visible to players, and the actual smelting process is handwaved away where we don't see the liquid metal and such and it's assumed to have happened inside the refinery. With SE2 you're just waving away the physical metal bars and having the final molding process visible and the liquid metals which is still ingots in functionality essentially, just by a different name so nothing has changed. This removal of ingots is nothing but fixing what isn't broke and searching for a solution to a problem while no one asked for this.
Not only this, but I'm calling shenanigans that in 10k years they've found a way to just magically use everything straight out of the ground with no refinement. Even more so this dumbs down building so much it's not funny and makes production facilities even more empty than they already can be. I'm all for trying to improve things where it can be improved, but I also believe in not fixing what isn't broke either. Refining materials never bothered me at all, and in fact I expect it with most games. Heck even Minecraft has an ingot stage for metals as simplistic as it is.
I know for me personally adding ingots back is going to be one of the first things I do barring something super extreme that makes me not care, as this is just dumb. The game does not need to be dumbed down that much.
Removing ingots is a moronic idea that dumbs the game down too much. Maybe they will surprise me but I'm not holding my breath on this. It doesn't matter whether it's today, or 10k years from now, rarely can we use raw materials straight out of the ground due to impurities and so on. If we tried our buildings would crumble and so on. The refining process exists irl to remove impurities and get to a universal standard material we can actually use. Not only this but having a "smelter" implies you're melting it down to refine anyways, so you're not removing the refinement step at all as you claim, you're just changing which part of it is visible to players. Currently in SE1 we have the physical metal bars that are visible to players, and the actual smelting process is handwaved away where we don't see the liquid metal and such and it's assumed to have happened inside the refinery. With SE2 you're just waving away the physical metal bars and having the final molding process visible and the liquid metals which is still ingots in functionality essentially, just by a different name so nothing has changed. This removal of ingots is nothing but fixing what isn't broke and searching for a solution to a problem while no one asked for this.
Not only this, but I'm calling shenanigans that in 10k years they've found a way to just magically use everything straight out of the ground with no refinement. Even more so this dumbs down building so much it's not funny and makes production facilities even more empty than they already can be. I'm all for trying to improve things where it can be improved, but I also believe in not fixing what isn't broke either. Refining materials never bothered me at all, and in fact I expect it with most games. Heck even Minecraft has an ingot stage for metals as simplistic as it is.
I know for me personally adding ingots back is going to be one of the first things I do barring something super extreme that makes me not care, as this is just dumb. The game does not need to be dumbed down that much.
So I'm going to touch on the removal of ingots a bit. But I am not directly opposed to bringing ingots back. Neither am I very upset about their removal. My personal view is that I trust the devs and their design decisions. Therefore I usually reserve judgment until I see the bigger picture and have more information. With that said this is not meant to be a rebuttal but more of some theorizing or explanation.
It's important to note that on the manufacturing or assembly side, skipping the ingot stage is already what happens in modern manufacturing. Nobody grabs an ingot to make computers, phones, or anything anymore. At the base level it's all manufactured from molten metals. We only turn metals into ingots when we need easy transport to a facility that can manufacture items.
In my point of view this means when you smelt ore into molten metal, and it stays a molten metal, you are bringing space engineers 2 up to the standard of modern manufacturing, rather than something that might have taken place in Valheim. And keep in mind that space engineers is a futuristic game, if anything their manufacturing techniques should be even more advanced than modern ones.
That being said one possibility that I've theorized is that we are skipping the ingot stage because there will be fluid dynamics. Meaning ores will be melted into fluids and stored as fluids during the entire manufacturing process. The power to keep a metal a fluid is not that immense (as we do these things today easily) and would be equal to what it costs to power a refiner.
Part of why I theorized this is because we will have water, water transport and storage, water pumps and fluid dynamics for water eventually. So it's possible there could be liquid metal storage. (though technically inefficient as a storage medium because ingots get the most metal in a space, more than liquid or dust/powder does).
There's no reason to turn something to an ingot that will just stay where it is anyway, only to have to be melted again so you can pour it into a mould or 3D print it into something else. And lets be honest, anytime I refined ores into ingots I also assembled them into parts in the same location. They didn't make trips across space in ingot form to arrive at a manufacturing facility where they would have then needed to be smelted into a fluid and then manufactured.
Some people have claimed ingots weren't removed and liquid metal is ingots under another name, or that nothing has changed. But technically, literally, logically, in every sense of what is going on, ingots were removed. Ingots is the name we give metals that we moulded into a shape for transport/storage. If hypothetically that shape were a gear? And we remove gears from the game, but still have molten metal, can it now be said that gears are still in the game, because they are still molten metal and therefore nothing is changed and it's just the same thing under a different name? No. Gears would have been removed. It's literally illogical to claim otherwise in this example.
So I'm going to touch on the removal of ingots a bit. But I am not directly opposed to bringing ingots back. Neither am I very upset about their removal. My personal view is that I trust the devs and their design decisions. Therefore I usually reserve judgment until I see the bigger picture and have more information. With that said this is not meant to be a rebuttal but more of some theorizing or explanation.
It's important to note that on the manufacturing or assembly side, skipping the ingot stage is already what happens in modern manufacturing. Nobody grabs an ingot to make computers, phones, or anything anymore. At the base level it's all manufactured from molten metals. We only turn metals into ingots when we need easy transport to a facility that can manufacture items.
In my point of view this means when you smelt ore into molten metal, and it stays a molten metal, you are bringing space engineers 2 up to the standard of modern manufacturing, rather than something that might have taken place in Valheim. And keep in mind that space engineers is a futuristic game, if anything their manufacturing techniques should be even more advanced than modern ones.
That being said one possibility that I've theorized is that we are skipping the ingot stage because there will be fluid dynamics. Meaning ores will be melted into fluids and stored as fluids during the entire manufacturing process. The power to keep a metal a fluid is not that immense (as we do these things today easily) and would be equal to what it costs to power a refiner.
Part of why I theorized this is because we will have water, water transport and storage, water pumps and fluid dynamics for water eventually. So it's possible there could be liquid metal storage. (though technically inefficient as a storage medium because ingots get the most metal in a space, more than liquid or dust/powder does).
There's no reason to turn something to an ingot that will just stay where it is anyway, only to have to be melted again so you can pour it into a mould or 3D print it into something else. And lets be honest, anytime I refined ores into ingots I also assembled them into parts in the same location. They didn't make trips across space in ingot form to arrive at a manufacturing facility where they would have then needed to be smelted into a fluid and then manufactured.
Some people have claimed ingots weren't removed and liquid metal is ingots under another name, or that nothing has changed. But technically, literally, logically, in every sense of what is going on, ingots were removed. Ingots is the name we give metals that we moulded into a shape for transport/storage. If hypothetically that shape were a gear? And we remove gears from the game, but still have molten metal, can it now be said that gears are still in the game, because they are still molten metal and therefore nothing is changed and it's just the same thing under a different name? No. Gears would have been removed. It's literally illogical to claim otherwise in this example.
To all who think this will dumb down the producation chain:
People have datamined that there will be probably 4 tiers of components (which need components from the lower tiers to produce) and 4 production blocks (Smelter, Assembler, Refinery, Fabricator) respectivly.
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZL0Eko_McQ
If your are interested in looking at the game files yourself, you can find references to the components in ...\SpaceEngineers2\GameData\Vanilla\Content\Components
and the producation blocks in ...\SpaceEngineers2\GameData\Vanilla\Content\Blocks
To all who think this will dumb down the producation chain:
People have datamined that there will be probably 4 tiers of components (which need components from the lower tiers to produce) and 4 production blocks (Smelter, Assembler, Refinery, Fabricator) respectivly.
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZL0Eko_McQ
If your are interested in looking at the game files yourself, you can find references to the components in ...\SpaceEngineers2\GameData\Vanilla\Content\Components
and the producation blocks in ...\SpaceEngineers2\GameData\Vanilla\Content\Blocks
Ingots are a solution to a logistic challenge and a irreplaceable part of the production line.
Do not remove mechanics that encourage us to find and implement engineering solutions. Create more of them in instead!
Ingots are a solution to a logistic challenge and a irreplaceable part of the production line.
Do not remove mechanics that encourage us to find and implement engineering solutions. Create more of them in instead!
I would be a real shame if Keen removed the ingots.
It can;t be stated better than above.
"Don't remove mechanics that encourage us to find and implement engineering solutions. Create more of them instead."
ALSO. Lets think for a minute. As a company making a game sequel.
People play the first game... because they like it. You have a dedicated customer base. These people enjoy the game with the current engineering process. If you can make it better, fine. If you change it substantially... NONE of us want a NEW game. We want a BETTER version of the SAME GAME. If you change the base game too much. You will have failed. You will have let us down.
I purchased SE2 the day it was on sale, not because I wanted to play it. I knew it wasn't playable in a way I would enjoy... and I expected it would be YEARS before it would be. I purchase all DLC, because I want to support Keen. I want to support the game they create that I love.
Please don't take away SE1 game basics. We're trusting you not to screw this up. We're handing you our money ahead of time. We're spending our "free" time in Space Engineers. We love SpaceEngineers. We're SO excited for SE2.
Please don't let us down.
I would be a real shame if Keen removed the ingots.
It can;t be stated better than above.
"Don't remove mechanics that encourage us to find and implement engineering solutions. Create more of them instead."
ALSO. Lets think for a minute. As a company making a game sequel.
People play the first game... because they like it. You have a dedicated customer base. These people enjoy the game with the current engineering process. If you can make it better, fine. If you change it substantially... NONE of us want a NEW game. We want a BETTER version of the SAME GAME. If you change the base game too much. You will have failed. You will have let us down.
I purchased SE2 the day it was on sale, not because I wanted to play it. I knew it wasn't playable in a way I would enjoy... and I expected it would be YEARS before it would be. I purchase all DLC, because I want to support Keen. I want to support the game they create that I love.
Please don't take away SE1 game basics. We're trusting you not to screw this up. We're handing you our money ahead of time. We're spending our "free" time in Space Engineers. We love SpaceEngineers. We're SO excited for SE2.
Please don't let us down.
Don't ruin this like they did with "Serious Sam 2".
If anyone played "SeriousSam", the second version added cool new things... and changed everything that made the first one great. The second one wasn't worth playing, and I wish I hadn't purchased it.
Don't ruin this like they did with "Serious Sam 2".
If anyone played "SeriousSam", the second version added cool new things... and changed everything that made the first one great. The second one wasn't worth playing, and I wish I hadn't purchased it.
What I would like them to do is replace the current Smelter with a dual function starter block, where you have a mini refinery and mini constructor inside it in order to get players used to ingots being converted to parts in the simplified way Keen is taking this. Like Satisfactory with their craft bench. This alt block could be your mobile builder.
Then for tier 2, have a refinery feed ingots into smelters for an efficiency and speed boost, then smelter into constructors like the current plan appears to be. The alt block into constructors would be your lower efficiency, bootstrap approach.
What I would like them to do is replace the current Smelter with a dual function starter block, where you have a mini refinery and mini constructor inside it in order to get players used to ingots being converted to parts in the simplified way Keen is taking this. Like Satisfactory with their craft bench. This alt block could be your mobile builder.
Then for tier 2, have a refinery feed ingots into smelters for an efficiency and speed boost, then smelter into constructors like the current plan appears to be. The alt block into constructors would be your lower efficiency, bootstrap approach.
Completely agree. Omitting the ingot stage would make it too simplistic and as stated above, removes the need to find engineering solutions. Personally I quite enjoyed the ingot stage in SE. I guess that it wouldn't be much of a practical difference in an automated conveyor system, just a matter of routing stuff a little differently. But I intuitively feel like omitting ingots would remove some complexity, which I really love.
Completely agree. Omitting the ingot stage would make it too simplistic and as stated above, removes the need to find engineering solutions. Personally I quite enjoyed the ingot stage in SE. I guess that it wouldn't be much of a practical difference in an automated conveyor system, just a matter of routing stuff a little differently. But I intuitively feel like omitting ingots would remove some complexity, which I really love.
Very, VERY bad idea to remove ingots.
Very, VERY bad idea to remove ingots.
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