Ingots - Keep them in
Under Consideration
Hi there,
Just giving some feedback about the smelter.
Just reading the recent update - SE2 will have a smelter and skip the ingot creation step. I personally like having an ingot step. I think it is good to have lots of things to do while on a long distance journey so you can be moving stuff around to refineries, smelters, assemblers etc etc while the spaceship flies towards a planet.
Not only that, but I was looking forward to stockpiling ingots in SE2. For me, it is very important to my enjoyment of the game.
Please keep the ingot step ingame. A lot of people seem to want it to be kept in.
I like this feedback Access denied
I have played SE1 since week 1 so I have a very long history with this game. I am all for trying smooth over some aspects of the game to make it more approachable to the average consumer. However I disagree with this choice as it stands right now.
Part of SE1 was the logistics work put in to make a factory to build components to turn into ships and vehicles that help you do all of that better. SE2 with out ingots and back pack building being WAY to over tuned means that ENTIRE loop is dead in the water. There is currently no real reason to build a Refinery or an Assembler. There is no reason to craft a single component. Everything can be done with a hand drill and a welder this really cheapens the game for me to the point where it is extremely boring.
Refining ore into metal is not complex idea or concept and its not something any survival game player is going to struggle with. The hard barrier to entry for SE1 was not its logistics, it was the buggy physics, complex and clunky menus, lack of progression, and poor net code making it hard to play multiplayer. These things are what need to be addressed to make SE2 more approachable than SE1. This current removal of logistics gameplay serves only to cheapen your project to a throw away game experience that can be easily experienced in full within a few hours. Please consider not alienating your core player base by removing aspects of the game that we not only liked, but was the primary reason we played : Engineering around the goal of logistics.
I have played SE1 since week 1 so I have a very long history with this game. I am all for trying smooth over some aspects of the game to make it more approachable to the average consumer. However I disagree with this choice as it stands right now.
Part of SE1 was the logistics work put in to make a factory to build components to turn into ships and vehicles that help you do all of that better. SE2 with out ingots and back pack building being WAY to over tuned means that ENTIRE loop is dead in the water. There is currently no real reason to build a Refinery or an Assembler. There is no reason to craft a single component. Everything can be done with a hand drill and a welder this really cheapens the game for me to the point where it is extremely boring.
Refining ore into metal is not complex idea or concept and its not something any survival game player is going to struggle with. The hard barrier to entry for SE1 was not its logistics, it was the buggy physics, complex and clunky menus, lack of progression, and poor net code making it hard to play multiplayer. These things are what need to be addressed to make SE2 more approachable than SE1. This current removal of logistics gameplay serves only to cheapen your project to a throw away game experience that can be easily experienced in full within a few hours. Please consider not alienating your core player base by removing aspects of the game that we not only liked, but was the primary reason we played : Engineering around the goal of logistics.
Please leave the Ingots as a step in production. I for one feel that more industry is a good thing. I'm certainly not asking for satisfactory levels of industry but being able to make large industrial looking ships or structures is always nice
But besides just wanting more industry having the ingots as an intermediate step between the raw unprocessed ores and components makes for easier stockpiling and storage
Please leave the Ingots as a step in production. I for one feel that more industry is a good thing. I'm certainly not asking for satisfactory levels of industry but being able to make large industrial looking ships or structures is always nice
But besides just wanting more industry having the ingots as an intermediate step between the raw unprocessed ores and components makes for easier stockpiling and storage
Ingots are the logical thing and removing them is a solution in search for a problem.
The point of them is to create a standard for material input for the creation of different simple components that is very dense, to maximize the amount stored per volume, and very compact, to minimize rotational inertia (for turning when you are holding them) and reduce other problems like having to watch out both far-away ends so you don't hit something (in the case of tubes) or so it doesn't get snagged on something (wire). Also, almost all materials can have the same shape, which simplifies storage and creates uniformity. Ingots are a solution for so many problems, and that's the beauty of them.
Why did you think it necessary to remove a step of the industrial process? The current one is too simple and fast already: last year with friends we wanted to do the classical run from the Earth to space, and the planetary stage was almost instant, with no real reason to keep a base on the ground. There is zero struggle, which is what would produce fun. Instead, we breeze through the progression and then for most people there's nothing to do. Instead of the current concept, you should have two block types, refinery/smelter and assembler. The first would turn ores into ingots, with internal or external tiers (modules, or basic/normal/advanced types for say iron, silicon, or uranium), and the second would turn ingots into components, also with internal or external tiers (modules, or basic/normal/advanced types for, for example, plates, computers, and turbines). The formula was already perfect in SE 1.
Ingots are the logical thing and removing them is a solution in search for a problem.
The point of them is to create a standard for material input for the creation of different simple components that is very dense, to maximize the amount stored per volume, and very compact, to minimize rotational inertia (for turning when you are holding them) and reduce other problems like having to watch out both far-away ends so you don't hit something (in the case of tubes) or so it doesn't get snagged on something (wire). Also, almost all materials can have the same shape, which simplifies storage and creates uniformity. Ingots are a solution for so many problems, and that's the beauty of them.
Why did you think it necessary to remove a step of the industrial process? The current one is too simple and fast already: last year with friends we wanted to do the classical run from the Earth to space, and the planetary stage was almost instant, with no real reason to keep a base on the ground. There is zero struggle, which is what would produce fun. Instead, we breeze through the progression and then for most people there's nothing to do. Instead of the current concept, you should have two block types, refinery/smelter and assembler. The first would turn ores into ingots, with internal or external tiers (modules, or basic/normal/advanced types for say iron, silicon, or uranium), and the second would turn ingots into components, also with internal or external tiers (modules, or basic/normal/advanced types for, for example, plates, computers, and turbines). The formula was already perfect in SE 1.
I would add that it would be cool to have storage for ingots that allows you to visually see them. For example, ingot racks.
I would add that it would be cool to have storage for ingots that allows you to visually see them. For example, ingot racks.
From my understanding when first hints of SE2 started to be given, the game was supposed to be a space engineers game, just with a newer engine.
Now you people are changing everything that functioned well thus far, for no clear reason? You changed menus, tools, block and engineers looks for what? a waste of time.
And i bet in time, it gets to keep all the same bugs as SE1 has, in a new and facelift package.
From my understanding when first hints of SE2 started to be given, the game was supposed to be a space engineers game, just with a newer engine.
Now you people are changing everything that functioned well thus far, for no clear reason? You changed menus, tools, block and engineers looks for what? a waste of time.
And i bet in time, it gets to keep all the same bugs as SE1 has, in a new and facelift package.
Removing ingots is a moronic idea that dumbs the game down too much. Maybe they will surprise me but I'm not holding my breath on this. It doesn't matter whether it's today, or 10k years from now, rarely can we use raw materials straight out of the ground due to impurities and so on. If we tried our buildings would crumble and so on. The refining process exists irl to remove impurities and get to a universal standard material we can actually use. Not only this but having a "smelter" implies you're melting it down to refine anyways, so you're not removing the refinement step at all as you claim, you're just changing which part of it is visible to players. Currently in SE1 we have the physical metal bars that are visible to players, and the actual smelting process is handwaved away where we don't see the liquid metal and such and it's assumed to have happened inside the refinery. With SE2 you're just waving away the physical metal bars and having the final molding process visible and the liquid metals which is still ingots in functionality essentially, just by a different name so nothing has changed. This removal of ingots is nothing but fixing what isn't broke and searching for a solution to a problem while no one asked for this.
Not only this, but I'm calling shenanigans that in 10k years they've found a way to just magically use everything straight out of the ground with no refinement. Even more so this dumbs down building so much it's not funny and makes production facilities even more empty than they already can be. I'm all for trying to improve things where it can be improved, but I also believe in not fixing what isn't broke either. Refining materials never bothered me at all, and in fact I expect it with most games. Heck even Minecraft has an ingot stage for metals as simplistic as it is.
I know for me personally adding ingots back is going to be one of the first things I do barring something super extreme that makes me not care, as this is just dumb. The game does not need to be dumbed down that much.
Removing ingots is a moronic idea that dumbs the game down too much. Maybe they will surprise me but I'm not holding my breath on this. It doesn't matter whether it's today, or 10k years from now, rarely can we use raw materials straight out of the ground due to impurities and so on. If we tried our buildings would crumble and so on. The refining process exists irl to remove impurities and get to a universal standard material we can actually use. Not only this but having a "smelter" implies you're melting it down to refine anyways, so you're not removing the refinement step at all as you claim, you're just changing which part of it is visible to players. Currently in SE1 we have the physical metal bars that are visible to players, and the actual smelting process is handwaved away where we don't see the liquid metal and such and it's assumed to have happened inside the refinery. With SE2 you're just waving away the physical metal bars and having the final molding process visible and the liquid metals which is still ingots in functionality essentially, just by a different name so nothing has changed. This removal of ingots is nothing but fixing what isn't broke and searching for a solution to a problem while no one asked for this.
Not only this, but I'm calling shenanigans that in 10k years they've found a way to just magically use everything straight out of the ground with no refinement. Even more so this dumbs down building so much it's not funny and makes production facilities even more empty than they already can be. I'm all for trying to improve things where it can be improved, but I also believe in not fixing what isn't broke either. Refining materials never bothered me at all, and in fact I expect it with most games. Heck even Minecraft has an ingot stage for metals as simplistic as it is.
I know for me personally adding ingots back is going to be one of the first things I do barring something super extreme that makes me not care, as this is just dumb. The game does not need to be dumbed down that much.
So I'm going to touch on the removal of ingots a bit. But I am not directly opposed to bringing ingots back. Neither am I very upset about their removal. My personal view is that I trust the devs and their design decisions. Therefore I usually reserve judgment until I see the bigger picture and have more information. With that said this is not meant to be a rebuttal but more of some theorizing or explanation.
It's important to note that on the manufacturing or assembly side, skipping the ingot stage is already what happens in modern manufacturing. Nobody grabs an ingot to make computers, phones, or anything anymore. At the base level it's all manufactured from molten metals. We only turn metals into ingots when we need easy transport to a facility that can manufacture items.
In my point of view this means when you smelt ore into molten metal, and it stays a molten metal, you are bringing space engineers 2 up to the standard of modern manufacturing, rather than something that might have taken place in Valheim. And keep in mind that space engineers is a futuristic game, if anything their manufacturing techniques should be even more advanced than modern ones.
That being said one possibility that I've theorized is that we are skipping the ingot stage because there will be fluid dynamics. Meaning ores will be melted into fluids and stored as fluids during the entire manufacturing process. The power to keep a metal a fluid is not that immense (as we do these things today easily) and would be equal to what it costs to power a refiner.
Part of why I theorized this is because we will have water, water transport and storage, water pumps and fluid dynamics for water eventually. So it's possible there could be liquid metal storage. (though technically inefficient as a storage medium because ingots get the most metal in a space, more than liquid or dust/powder does).
There's no reason to turn something to an ingot that will just stay where it is anyway, only to have to be melted again so you can pour it into a mould or 3D print it into something else. And lets be honest, anytime I refined ores into ingots I also assembled them into parts in the same location. They didn't make trips across space in ingot form to arrive at a manufacturing facility where they would have then needed to be smelted into a fluid and then manufactured.
Some people have claimed ingots weren't removed and liquid metal is ingots under another name, or that nothing has changed. But technically, literally, logically, in every sense of what is going on, ingots were removed. Ingots is the name we give metals that we moulded into a shape for transport/storage. If hypothetically that shape were a gear? And we remove gears from the game, but still have molten metal, can it now be said that gears are still in the game, because they are still molten metal and therefore nothing is changed and it's just the same thing under a different name? No. Gears would have been removed. It's literally illogical to claim otherwise in this example.
So I'm going to touch on the removal of ingots a bit. But I am not directly opposed to bringing ingots back. Neither am I very upset about their removal. My personal view is that I trust the devs and their design decisions. Therefore I usually reserve judgment until I see the bigger picture and have more information. With that said this is not meant to be a rebuttal but more of some theorizing or explanation.
It's important to note that on the manufacturing or assembly side, skipping the ingot stage is already what happens in modern manufacturing. Nobody grabs an ingot to make computers, phones, or anything anymore. At the base level it's all manufactured from molten metals. We only turn metals into ingots when we need easy transport to a facility that can manufacture items.
In my point of view this means when you smelt ore into molten metal, and it stays a molten metal, you are bringing space engineers 2 up to the standard of modern manufacturing, rather than something that might have taken place in Valheim. And keep in mind that space engineers is a futuristic game, if anything their manufacturing techniques should be even more advanced than modern ones.
That being said one possibility that I've theorized is that we are skipping the ingot stage because there will be fluid dynamics. Meaning ores will be melted into fluids and stored as fluids during the entire manufacturing process. The power to keep a metal a fluid is not that immense (as we do these things today easily) and would be equal to what it costs to power a refiner.
Part of why I theorized this is because we will have water, water transport and storage, water pumps and fluid dynamics for water eventually. So it's possible there could be liquid metal storage. (though technically inefficient as a storage medium because ingots get the most metal in a space, more than liquid or dust/powder does).
There's no reason to turn something to an ingot that will just stay where it is anyway, only to have to be melted again so you can pour it into a mould or 3D print it into something else. And lets be honest, anytime I refined ores into ingots I also assembled them into parts in the same location. They didn't make trips across space in ingot form to arrive at a manufacturing facility where they would have then needed to be smelted into a fluid and then manufactured.
Some people have claimed ingots weren't removed and liquid metal is ingots under another name, or that nothing has changed. But technically, literally, logically, in every sense of what is going on, ingots were removed. Ingots is the name we give metals that we moulded into a shape for transport/storage. If hypothetically that shape were a gear? And we remove gears from the game, but still have molten metal, can it now be said that gears are still in the game, because they are still molten metal and therefore nothing is changed and it's just the same thing under a different name? No. Gears would have been removed. It's literally illogical to claim otherwise in this example.
To all who think this will dumb down the producation chain:
People have datamined that there will be probably 4 tiers of components (which need components from the lower tiers to produce) and 4 production blocks (Smelter, Assembler, Refinery, Fabricator) respectivly.
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZL0Eko_McQ
If your are interested in looking at the game files yourself, you can find references to the components in ...\SpaceEngineers2\GameData\Vanilla\Content\Components
and the producation blocks in ...\SpaceEngineers2\GameData\Vanilla\Content\Blocks
To all who think this will dumb down the producation chain:
People have datamined that there will be probably 4 tiers of components (which need components from the lower tiers to produce) and 4 production blocks (Smelter, Assembler, Refinery, Fabricator) respectivly.
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZL0Eko_McQ
If your are interested in looking at the game files yourself, you can find references to the components in ...\SpaceEngineers2\GameData\Vanilla\Content\Components
and the producation blocks in ...\SpaceEngineers2\GameData\Vanilla\Content\Blocks
Ingots are a solution to a logistic challenge and a irreplaceable part of the production line.
Do not remove mechanics that encourage us to find and implement engineering solutions. Create more of them in instead!
Ingots are a solution to a logistic challenge and a irreplaceable part of the production line.
Do not remove mechanics that encourage us to find and implement engineering solutions. Create more of them in instead!
I would be a real shame if Keen removed the ingots.
It can;t be stated better than above.
"Don't remove mechanics that encourage us to find and implement engineering solutions. Create more of them instead."
ALSO. Lets think for a minute. As a company making a game sequel.
People play the first game... because they like it. You have a dedicated customer base. These people enjoy the game with the current engineering process. If you can make it better, fine. If you change it substantially... NONE of us want a NEW game. We want a BETTER version of the SAME GAME. If you change the base game too much. You will have failed. You will have let us down.
I purchased SE2 the day it was on sale, not because I wanted to play it. I knew it wasn't playable in a way I would enjoy... and I expected it would be YEARS before it would be. I purchase all DLC, because I want to support Keen. I want to support the game they create that I love.
Please don't take away SE1 game basics. We're trusting you not to screw this up. We're handing you our money ahead of time. We're spending our "free" time in Space Engineers. We love SpaceEngineers. We're SO excited for SE2.
Please don't let us down.
I would be a real shame if Keen removed the ingots.
It can;t be stated better than above.
"Don't remove mechanics that encourage us to find and implement engineering solutions. Create more of them instead."
ALSO. Lets think for a minute. As a company making a game sequel.
People play the first game... because they like it. You have a dedicated customer base. These people enjoy the game with the current engineering process. If you can make it better, fine. If you change it substantially... NONE of us want a NEW game. We want a BETTER version of the SAME GAME. If you change the base game too much. You will have failed. You will have let us down.
I purchased SE2 the day it was on sale, not because I wanted to play it. I knew it wasn't playable in a way I would enjoy... and I expected it would be YEARS before it would be. I purchase all DLC, because I want to support Keen. I want to support the game they create that I love.
Please don't take away SE1 game basics. We're trusting you not to screw this up. We're handing you our money ahead of time. We're spending our "free" time in Space Engineers. We love SpaceEngineers. We're SO excited for SE2.
Please don't let us down.
Don't ruin this like they did with "Serious Sam 2".
If anyone played "SeriousSam", the second version added cool new things... and changed everything that made the first one great. The second one wasn't worth playing, and I wish I hadn't purchased it.
Don't ruin this like they did with "Serious Sam 2".
If anyone played "SeriousSam", the second version added cool new things... and changed everything that made the first one great. The second one wasn't worth playing, and I wish I hadn't purchased it.
What I would like them to do is replace the current Smelter with a dual function starter block, where you have a mini refinery and mini constructor inside it in order to get players used to ingots being converted to parts in the simplified way Keen is taking this. Like Satisfactory with their craft bench. This alt block could be your mobile builder.
Then for tier 2, have a refinery feed ingots into smelters for an efficiency and speed boost, then smelter into constructors like the current plan appears to be. The alt block into constructors would be your lower efficiency, bootstrap approach.
What I would like them to do is replace the current Smelter with a dual function starter block, where you have a mini refinery and mini constructor inside it in order to get players used to ingots being converted to parts in the simplified way Keen is taking this. Like Satisfactory with their craft bench. This alt block could be your mobile builder.
Then for tier 2, have a refinery feed ingots into smelters for an efficiency and speed boost, then smelter into constructors like the current plan appears to be. The alt block into constructors would be your lower efficiency, bootstrap approach.
Completely agree. Omitting the ingot stage would make it too simplistic and as stated above, removes the need to find engineering solutions. Personally I quite enjoyed the ingot stage in SE. I guess that it wouldn't be much of a practical difference in an automated conveyor system, just a matter of routing stuff a little differently. But I intuitively feel like omitting ingots would remove some complexity, which I really love.
Completely agree. Omitting the ingot stage would make it too simplistic and as stated above, removes the need to find engineering solutions. Personally I quite enjoyed the ingot stage in SE. I guess that it wouldn't be much of a practical difference in an automated conveyor system, just a matter of routing stuff a little differently. But I intuitively feel like omitting ingots would remove some complexity, which I really love.
Very, VERY bad idea to remove ingots.
Very, VERY bad idea to remove ingots.
The crafting aspect of space engineers always has been severely lacking. As a Engineer I would expect to engineer large factories, think of creative solutions to optimize it. And instead you build an advanced smelter and advanced fabricator which is a 2x2x5 space and you can build everything in the game.
Stripping out the ingot stage is making it even more simplified and less about engineering.
The crafting aspect of space engineers always has been severely lacking. As a Engineer I would expect to engineer large factories, think of creative solutions to optimize it. And instead you build an advanced smelter and advanced fabricator which is a 2x2x5 space and you can build everything in the game.
Stripping out the ingot stage is making it even more simplified and less about engineering.
I think people are forgetting; that ingots in SE1 are basically Ore 2.0, that simply uses less cargo space. From an engineering stand point, it was just another step; that was simply, in ores, out ingots. It doesn't really challenge the player's engineering skills. Also, as far as, cargo consumption is concerned; that can be fixed by rebalancing values, or making the basic parts a substitute for ingots. As such, Ingots are not that integral to the overall gameplay.
I can understand people liking them though.
Though, people, need to give keen more benefit of the doubt on this decision, and see how it plays out first; before complaining about it.
I think people are forgetting; that ingots in SE1 are basically Ore 2.0, that simply uses less cargo space. From an engineering stand point, it was just another step; that was simply, in ores, out ingots. It doesn't really challenge the player's engineering skills. Also, as far as, cargo consumption is concerned; that can be fixed by rebalancing values, or making the basic parts a substitute for ingots. As such, Ingots are not that integral to the overall gameplay.
I can understand people liking them though.
Though, people, need to give keen more benefit of the doubt on this decision, and see how it plays out first; before complaining about it.
Crafting is my favourite things to do in all games. Making crafting easier is not the way.
Crafting is my favourite things to do in all games. Making crafting easier is not the way.
I don't quite understand where the advantage of ingots is supposed to lie...
it makes no difference whether the material is counted by weight in ingot form or by weight in powder form.
I don't quite understand where the advantage of ingots is supposed to lie...
it makes no difference whether the material is counted by weight in ingot form or by weight in powder form.
@Semtex - Now I am confused as to how storage containers work, pressure vacuum and all.
Metals can bond with more than oxygen and then there is the exposure to full EM spectrum.
Storage containers must have many secrets!
@Semtex - Now I am confused as to how storage containers work, pressure vacuum and all.
Metals can bond with more than oxygen and then there is the exposure to full EM spectrum.
Storage containers must have many secrets!
+1 for keeping them in.
One of the things that is fun about a game where you build things like ore processing facilities and smelters is that at some point you get to use those things.
When you mine up a bunch of ore, there’s an expectation (not just in SE, in any survival game) that you get the little dopamine hit of sitting in your base and watching them convert to ingots/bars before using them in other production chains.
Not having that step feels weird, like it’s just creative mode with a few extra steps instead of survival. At that point, if the intermediate steps aren’t being included, just make creative mode the main thing and don’t waste time on survival mode.
+1 for keeping them in.
One of the things that is fun about a game where you build things like ore processing facilities and smelters is that at some point you get to use those things.
When you mine up a bunch of ore, there’s an expectation (not just in SE, in any survival game) that you get the little dopamine hit of sitting in your base and watching them convert to ingots/bars before using them in other production chains.
Not having that step feels weird, like it’s just creative mode with a few extra steps instead of survival. At that point, if the intermediate steps aren’t being included, just make creative mode the main thing and don’t waste time on survival mode.
I mean, I'm sure we'll still be accruing important parts and products in the inventory but I do like building that stash of platinum.
I mean, I'm sure we'll still be accruing important parts and products in the inventory but I do like building that stash of platinum.
I assumed that the smelter was an early game device to simplify production, that would be superseded by the conventional refinery and assembler, with ingots, later as gameplay progressed.
I assumed that the smelter was an early game device to simplify production, that would be superseded by the conventional refinery and assembler, with ingots, later as gameplay progressed.
In my opinion it makes no sense to delete the ores These are relevant for transport technical reasons Why should you transport ores over long distances? If you can process them locally with refineries And then you can save a huge amount of weight and volume This makes sense for short or medium distances but not for long distances And in my opinion it feels absolutely wrong Jump from ores directly to primitive components This also applies to trade and all other steps related to it It should not be forgotten that one of the primary components of Space Engineers is resource procurement To cut out one step of resource procurement just because you then add several other steps elsewhere just feels wrong to me
Please just leave the ores in the production line
For me it is also a good feeling to have a huge amount of ingots
In my opinion it makes no sense to delete the ores These are relevant for transport technical reasons Why should you transport ores over long distances? If you can process them locally with refineries And then you can save a huge amount of weight and volume This makes sense for short or medium distances but not for long distances And in my opinion it feels absolutely wrong Jump from ores directly to primitive components This also applies to trade and all other steps related to it It should not be forgotten that one of the primary components of Space Engineers is resource procurement To cut out one step of resource procurement just because you then add several other steps elsewhere just feels wrong to me
Please just leave the ores in the production line
For me it is also a good feeling to have a huge amount of ingots
The main reason to build is to deal with the complexities of crafting, storage and logistics.. Removing a level of complexity... reduces the need for plumbing..
Crafting items directly from ore could have penalties like higher power or material requirements or higher waste products. Even expensive higher end game machines to do it.
I like that complex recipes are being added for multi stage components. But this should be in addition to Pure metals not instead of.
Please keep pure metal ingots. ( I guess its too late at this stage to change your direction on this sadly )
I often play as a gold miner, just collecting all the gold because its GOLD! How can I do that if there are no gold ingots.
The main reason to build is to deal with the complexities of crafting, storage and logistics.. Removing a level of complexity... reduces the need for plumbing..
Crafting items directly from ore could have penalties like higher power or material requirements or higher waste products. Even expensive higher end game machines to do it.
I like that complex recipes are being added for multi stage components. But this should be in addition to Pure metals not instead of.
Please keep pure metal ingots. ( I guess its too late at this stage to change your direction on this sadly )
I often play as a gold miner, just collecting all the gold because its GOLD! How can I do that if there are no gold ingots.
So we are stuck with Empyion style magic building clothes and no requirement for ingots? Not a step forward from SE, a step towards the dumbing down of SE. If you like all the machines and componant steps etc. the Industrial mod for SE gives you that, plus more ores, ingots, and componants as well as multi step components. This is what SE2 should have been like. Instead we get missing steps and silly hardware (backpack)...Come on Keen you can do better than this, I know you can when you really try.
So we are stuck with Empyion style magic building clothes and no requirement for ingots? Not a step forward from SE, a step towards the dumbing down of SE. If you like all the machines and componant steps etc. the Industrial mod for SE gives you that, plus more ores, ingots, and componants as well as multi step components. This is what SE2 should have been like. Instead we get missing steps and silly hardware (backpack)...Come on Keen you can do better than this, I know you can when you really try.
Well I guess we will have to wait for the modders to fix these issues (as usual) as Keen seems set on ruining the manufacturing process for all. Not to worry the modders have fixed everything in past and added all the missing bits Keen left out of SE1 (missing conveyor pieces, etc). I just thought for once Keen could address the issues early and not simply kick it over to the modders to fix, silly me.
Well I guess we will have to wait for the modders to fix these issues (as usual) as Keen seems set on ruining the manufacturing process for all. Not to worry the modders have fixed everything in past and added all the missing bits Keen left out of SE1 (missing conveyor pieces, etc). I just thought for once Keen could address the issues early and not simply kick it over to the modders to fix, silly me.
One thing I always found missing in SE1 was the need to engineer factories.
One smelter and one advanced fabricator is all you needed.
Now I don't expect to have a full on Factorio kind of gameplay but a reason to make multiple bases and have some engineering problem to solve when thinking about production would be great. Industry expanded is basically in every single one of my worlds in SE1.
To me space engineers is about solving problems. So removing ingots is in my eyes a step in the wrong direction as it removes a problem, even if it is a tiny one, for me to solve.
One thing I always found missing in SE1 was the need to engineer factories.
One smelter and one advanced fabricator is all you needed.
Now I don't expect to have a full on Factorio kind of gameplay but a reason to make multiple bases and have some engineering problem to solve when thinking about production would be great. Industry expanded is basically in every single one of my worlds in SE1.
To me space engineers is about solving problems. So removing ingots is in my eyes a step in the wrong direction as it removes a problem, even if it is a tiny one, for me to solve.
Yeah stockpiling ingots was always very fun, I don't really like the idea of that going away. More steps in production, with some sort of factory-like system sounds more interesting, too. That said, I want to see what they have planned in-game and try it out before seeing any changes to it as it might be a lot better than what we expect. Aka, I don't think we should judge it before we try it.
Yeah stockpiling ingots was always very fun, I don't really like the idea of that going away. More steps in production, with some sort of factory-like system sounds more interesting, too. That said, I want to see what they have planned in-game and try it out before seeing any changes to it as it might be a lot better than what we expect. Aka, I don't think we should judge it before we try it.
Yeah I had a lot of fun setting up complex production chains in the industry overhaul mods, ore->ingots just made transport convenient and eliminating it doesn't really make the process for a new player less complicated, its one of the most common tropes in survival/production games and people understand that if you need to make complex components you need to break down raw materials, focus more on explaining how the production chain works instead of simplifying aspects of it, im all for making it really complicated as long as the order is explained somewhere
Yeah I had a lot of fun setting up complex production chains in the industry overhaul mods, ore->ingots just made transport convenient and eliminating it doesn't really make the process for a new player less complicated, its one of the most common tropes in survival/production games and people understand that if you need to make complex components you need to break down raw materials, focus more on explaining how the production chain works instead of simplifying aspects of it, im all for making it really complicated as long as the order is explained somewhere
Summary of the “Ingot Removal” Debate
Overall context:
Keen announced that Space Engineers 2 will not include ingots as a separate stage between ores and components. This sparked a massive discussion about design philosophy, realism, gameplay depth, and player motivation. Opinions are divided, though the majority oppose the removal.
1. Arguments in Favor of Removing Ingots
a. Simplification & modern logic
b. Streamlined gameplay
c. Trust in the developers
2. Arguments Against Removing Ingotsa. Loss of engineering depth
b. Reduced immersion and realism
c. Damaged progression and satisfaction
d. Economic and logistical consequences
e. Missed opportunity for deeper production systems
f. Reliance on mods is not a solution
g. Aesthetic and creative reasons
3. Neutral or Middle-ground Opinions
4. Philosophical DivideThe debate ultimately reflects two design philosophies:
The majority of comments lean toward the first group — valuing depth, realism, and immersion over simplicity.
5. Key Takeaways
Summary of the “Ingot Removal” Debate
Overall context:
Keen announced that Space Engineers 2 will not include ingots as a separate stage between ores and components. This sparked a massive discussion about design philosophy, realism, gameplay depth, and player motivation. Opinions are divided, though the majority oppose the removal.
1. Arguments in Favor of Removing Ingots
a. Simplification & modern logic
b. Streamlined gameplay
c. Trust in the developers
2. Arguments Against Removing Ingotsa. Loss of engineering depth
b. Reduced immersion and realism
c. Damaged progression and satisfaction
d. Economic and logistical consequences
e. Missed opportunity for deeper production systems
f. Reliance on mods is not a solution
g. Aesthetic and creative reasons
3. Neutral or Middle-ground Opinions
4. Philosophical DivideThe debate ultimately reflects two design philosophies:
The majority of comments lean toward the first group — valuing depth, realism, and immersion over simplicity.
5. Key Takeaways
I want to bump/support this because ingots are very important for space-saving. We need to be able to move around resources without making them into components and raw ore is very impractical in this regard.
I want to bump/support this because ingots are very important for space-saving. We need to be able to move around resources without making them into components and raw ore is very impractical in this regard.
I can't agree that ingots by themselves are i portnat in any meaningful way. They are just an intermediate step in production that provides no real challenge in core gameplay.
As long as there remains production chains, of which we see they've expanded and diversified them, we should be good.
Of course we shall see. Honestly I'd personally keep ingots out and add a layer of to of late game crafting complexity on top of whats advertised in VS2. Something that takes massive energy input or has other unique properties to design around.
We shall see how it all lands! If it feels flat without ingots in practice I'll get aboard but not until I try it!
I can't agree that ingots by themselves are i portnat in any meaningful way. They are just an intermediate step in production that provides no real challenge in core gameplay.
As long as there remains production chains, of which we see they've expanded and diversified them, we should be good.
Of course we shall see. Honestly I'd personally keep ingots out and add a layer of to of late game crafting complexity on top of whats advertised in VS2. Something that takes massive energy input or has other unique properties to design around.
We shall see how it all lands! If it feels flat without ingots in practice I'll get aboard but not until I try it!
I think ingots should be added as an alternative to ores, you can use ores like the devs planned, or you can turn them into ingots and use those
I think ingots should be added as an alternative to ores, you can use ores like the devs planned, or you can turn them into ingots and use those
At this point in time, VS2, the ores are more versatile than the basic components, almost to the point of the components being obsolete until you need them for other more advanced components. It not only doesn't make sense, it actively feels bad playing. It cuts out a quarter of the game play loop, cutting the depth of the game severely. Just make the backpack have a slow basic refinery for starter ores, if your going for simplicity for the sake of new players. It's okay to have some starting grind, especially with the new missions letting you know what you need to do. Look satisfactory has refiners, even NMS(No Man's Sky) has refining. It's not the mechanic that drove new players away, it was the sandbox with no structure and goals, which you are very much on track to solve with the colonization/contracts system. Put Ingots back in, and throw the volumetric storage limits back in too while you are at it.
At this point in time, VS2, the ores are more versatile than the basic components, almost to the point of the components being obsolete until you need them for other more advanced components. It not only doesn't make sense, it actively feels bad playing. It cuts out a quarter of the game play loop, cutting the depth of the game severely. Just make the backpack have a slow basic refinery for starter ores, if your going for simplicity for the sake of new players. It's okay to have some starting grind, especially with the new missions letting you know what you need to do. Look satisfactory has refiners, even NMS(No Man's Sky) has refining. It's not the mechanic that drove new players away, it was the sandbox with no structure and goals, which you are very much on track to solve with the colonization/contracts system. Put Ingots back in, and throw the volumetric storage limits back in too while you are at it.
They want the game to be accessible for new players and they focus a lot on it. On the other hand, they want us, veteran players, to provide a feedback in early access. Those 2 things are just incompatible. A seasoned player will always want a more deep and complex production chains.
I see 2 possible ways to solve this.
1. Make 2 production systems: arcade and realistic. Arcade mode will have current OP backpack and simplified production chain. While realistic will have potentially dozens of different universal and specialized blocks for a deep and interesting survival/economy gameplay. You can check many of related suggestions on this forum about it.
2. Nerf backpack. make it much slower and inefficient to produce componets from raw ore. Add ingots. Backpack can produce basic components faster from ingots than from raw ore. Add specialized refineries to smelt different raw ores into ingots. Other production blocks will use ingots and not raw ore.
Starting missions can have less blocks to be welded or repaired to compensate for nerfed backpack if needed, but I think it is very (too) fast anyway.
They want the game to be accessible for new players and they focus a lot on it. On the other hand, they want us, veteran players, to provide a feedback in early access. Those 2 things are just incompatible. A seasoned player will always want a more deep and complex production chains.
I see 2 possible ways to solve this.
1. Make 2 production systems: arcade and realistic. Arcade mode will have current OP backpack and simplified production chain. While realistic will have potentially dozens of different universal and specialized blocks for a deep and interesting survival/economy gameplay. You can check many of related suggestions on this forum about it.
2. Nerf backpack. make it much slower and inefficient to produce componets from raw ore. Add ingots. Backpack can produce basic components faster from ingots than from raw ore. Add specialized refineries to smelt different raw ores into ingots. Other production blocks will use ingots and not raw ore.
Starting missions can have less blocks to be welded or repaired to compensate for nerfed backpack if needed, but I think it is very (too) fast anyway.
I've only been playing for a few hours with the new update, but I also was surprised that I can't take a component made with materials and break it back down into those raw materials. This was a core part of playing SE1 where I would need Gold or Platinum -- can't find any deposits with those (or I don't have a full sized refinery), but I do have an assembler, and I just found a crashed ship with Ion Thrusters and my brain immediately says "Jackpot!" because I know I can break those thruster components back down into their raw ingots to use for other components.
This makes components way more valuable than just their use in blocks.
I've only been playing for a few hours with the new update, but I also was surprised that I can't take a component made with materials and break it back down into those raw materials. This was a core part of playing SE1 where I would need Gold or Platinum -- can't find any deposits with those (or I don't have a full sized refinery), but I do have an assembler, and I just found a crashed ship with Ion Thrusters and my brain immediately says "Jackpot!" because I know I can break those thruster components back down into their raw ingots to use for other components.
This makes components way more valuable than just their use in blocks.
Why are you casualizing the production chains instead of making them deeper and more interesting? If I wanted no-brain, one-click production I’d just play No Man’s Sky or some other similar junk. Please stop chasing hypothetical new players and focus on the needs of your core audience. Many of us actually enjoy complex logistics: moving ore to refineries, smelting, stockpiling ingots and then feeding assemblers, especially during long space flights. Removing the ingot step takes away a whole layer of engagement. Keep ingots in the game, or you risk your most dedicated players simply dropping it.
Why are you casualizing the production chains instead of making them deeper and more interesting? If I wanted no-brain, one-click production I’d just play No Man’s Sky or some other similar junk. Please stop chasing hypothetical new players and focus on the needs of your core audience. Many of us actually enjoy complex logistics: moving ore to refineries, smelting, stockpiling ingots and then feeding assemblers, especially during long space flights. Removing the ingot step takes away a whole layer of engagement. Keep ingots in the game, or you risk your most dedicated players simply dropping it.
Totally agree. Biggest let down so far has been the removal of this fundamental mechanic. Ingots have a most important function in the production logistics of SE1. SE2 resource management feels...dumbed down at the moment - although yes, I know it's early days. And I also know things change later in the game with the introduction of new production blocks. But the absence of ingots kind of breaks the game for me. I just do not like this suit-building mechanic. That a fully functional block can simply 'manifest' from a bunch of raw ore? It feels more like black magic than space engineering. I want deeper gameplay, not cheaper.
I'm all for change when change equals improvement, and I'm all for SE2 forging its own identity. But this feels more like a step back than forward.
I want to see Ingots back on the menu.
Let's say a chunk of raw Iron ore is only ~30% iron, the rest being rock/dirt/dross. The refining process, the ingot-making process, is designed to remove that dross. With the resulting ingot being a fraction of the original bulk, it becomes lighter to carry, and requires less volume to store etc. That's the logic behind it, and it makes complete sense. It adheres to a more realistic - and more immersive - production loop, and is by degrees superior to the current 'magic spacesuit' mechanic.
I love that SE2 is trying to do new things, but - and I think I speak for many - we want to see the things we love in SE1 being preserved in this game. Ingots number one.
Totally agree. Biggest let down so far has been the removal of this fundamental mechanic. Ingots have a most important function in the production logistics of SE1. SE2 resource management feels...dumbed down at the moment - although yes, I know it's early days. And I also know things change later in the game with the introduction of new production blocks. But the absence of ingots kind of breaks the game for me. I just do not like this suit-building mechanic. That a fully functional block can simply 'manifest' from a bunch of raw ore? It feels more like black magic than space engineering. I want deeper gameplay, not cheaper.
I'm all for change when change equals improvement, and I'm all for SE2 forging its own identity. But this feels more like a step back than forward.
I want to see Ingots back on the menu.
Let's say a chunk of raw Iron ore is only ~30% iron, the rest being rock/dirt/dross. The refining process, the ingot-making process, is designed to remove that dross. With the resulting ingot being a fraction of the original bulk, it becomes lighter to carry, and requires less volume to store etc. That's the logic behind it, and it makes complete sense. It adheres to a more realistic - and more immersive - production loop, and is by degrees superior to the current 'magic spacesuit' mechanic.
I love that SE2 is trying to do new things, but - and I think I speak for many - we want to see the things we love in SE1 being preserved in this game. Ingots number one.
I have played SE1 since week 1 so I have a very long history with this game. I am all for trying smooth over some aspects of the game to make it more approachable to the average consumer. However I disagree with this choice as it stands right now.
Part of SE1 was the logistics work put in to make a factory to build components to turn into ships and vehicles that help you do all of that better. SE2 with out ingots and back pack building being WAY to over tuned means that ENTIRE loop is dead in the water. There is currently no real reason to build a Refinery or an Assembler. There is no reason to craft a single component. Everything can be done with a hand drill and a welder this really cheapens the game for me to the point where it is extremely boring.
Refining ore into metal is not complex idea or concept and its not something any survival game player is going to struggle with. The hard barrier to entry for SE1 was not its logistics, it was the buggy physics, complex and clunky menus, lack of progression, and poor net code making it hard to play multiplayer. These things are what need to be addressed to make SE2 more approachable than SE1. This current removal of logistics gameplay serves only to cheapen your project to a throw away game experience that can be easily experienced in full within a few hours. Please consider not alienating your core player base by removing aspects of the game that we not only liked, but was the primary reason we played : Engineering around the goal of logistics.
I have played SE1 since week 1 so I have a very long history with this game. I am all for trying smooth over some aspects of the game to make it more approachable to the average consumer. However I disagree with this choice as it stands right now.
Part of SE1 was the logistics work put in to make a factory to build components to turn into ships and vehicles that help you do all of that better. SE2 with out ingots and back pack building being WAY to over tuned means that ENTIRE loop is dead in the water. There is currently no real reason to build a Refinery or an Assembler. There is no reason to craft a single component. Everything can be done with a hand drill and a welder this really cheapens the game for me to the point where it is extremely boring.
Refining ore into metal is not complex idea or concept and its not something any survival game player is going to struggle with. The hard barrier to entry for SE1 was not its logistics, it was the buggy physics, complex and clunky menus, lack of progression, and poor net code making it hard to play multiplayer. These things are what need to be addressed to make SE2 more approachable than SE1. This current removal of logistics gameplay serves only to cheapen your project to a throw away game experience that can be easily experienced in full within a few hours. Please consider not alienating your core player base by removing aspects of the game that we not only liked, but was the primary reason we played : Engineering around the goal of logistics.
from engineer with more than 5k hours on record - PLEASE, leave ingots in the game.. :-) Thank you
from engineer with more than 5k hours on record - PLEASE, leave ingots in the game.. :-) Thank you
Ingots were removed, but the logistics were not. You cannot make everything with the suit, and you cannot make parts with the suit at all without welding directly into a block. You need a smelter to make the most basic components (think of these as your ingots), and the suit cannot make all of them. Gold thread is a perfect example, which is needed for the tiny ion thrusters. An assembler makes the first stage of complex components, often requiring items from the smelter in addition to raw ore. The refinery makes yet another type of component, many of which are literally ingots, such as enriched uranium or magnesium bars. Instead of just one refinery and one assembler, you now also need the smelter and fabricator. The fabricator makes the most complex components, requiring inputs from all three of the other production blocks.
This fixes a common complaint in SE1 where the basic assembler and refinery became obsolete once you could make the big versions. In SE2, you need all four blocks. It is more complex than before, not less.
Ingots were removed, but the logistics were not. You cannot make everything with the suit, and you cannot make parts with the suit at all without welding directly into a block. You need a smelter to make the most basic components (think of these as your ingots), and the suit cannot make all of them. Gold thread is a perfect example, which is needed for the tiny ion thrusters. An assembler makes the first stage of complex components, often requiring items from the smelter in addition to raw ore. The refinery makes yet another type of component, many of which are literally ingots, such as enriched uranium or magnesium bars. Instead of just one refinery and one assembler, you now also need the smelter and fabricator. The fabricator makes the most complex components, requiring inputs from all three of the other production blocks.
This fixes a common complaint in SE1 where the basic assembler and refinery became obsolete once you could make the big versions. In SE2, you need all four blocks. It is more complex than before, not less.
There needs to be Ingots for all Resources
Refinery should refine all ores and should not assemble anything because its not what it supposed to do
and move it to the assembler
There needs to be Ingots for all Resources
Refinery should refine all ores and should not assemble anything because its not what it supposed to do
and move it to the assembler
Keen, not having ingots is too much simplification. Smoothing a tire saves material but also makes it dangerous to drive in the rain.
Keen, not having ingots is too much simplification. Smoothing a tire saves material but also makes it dangerous to drive in the rain.
Bring back stone is also very related to this.
Bring back stone is also very related to this.
As part of this, you should have a 'recycler' device to turn components back into said ingots (even with some loss). It's jarring and odd that if I have a bunch of copper wire for example, I can't turn that back into something usable (i.e. ingots) to make something else reuqiring copper and instead have to go get more copper ore. I have coppper, it's just in wire form vs. ore form!
As part of this, you should have a 'recycler' device to turn components back into said ingots (even with some loss). It's jarring and odd that if I have a bunch of copper wire for example, I can't turn that back into something usable (i.e. ingots) to make something else reuqiring copper and instead have to go get more copper ore. I have coppper, it's just in wire form vs. ore form!
A lot of people seem to feel pretty strongly about this...But can we just take a moment to think about this...What are we really asking here...for more complexity....adding stone...refining...ingots? these all sound like difficulty vectors...For example Let us look at SE1...backpack space, grinding, welding speeds, refinement cycle times...those are all difficulty vectors making the game easier or harder based on the settings. I am in the crowd of lets have ALL the complexity and difficulty...but really these should be options of the masocist Engineers. Let them build and design the game to get AS MANY engineers up and running as possible and give us the difficulty vectors later as we got with SE1...I can wait to torture myself...but I also want my seven year old to WANT to build cool stuff like his dad and not have an existential crisis.
In conclusion I think we will probably get ALL these things in the end and if not there will be a mod for it eventually but I am completely ok with that not even being a thought right now at KEEN...focus on making the game playable, fun and engaging for a wider audience....add features, smash bugs and give us all the blocks and goodies....then lets really think about giving us those difficulty vectors and complexity.
A lot of people seem to feel pretty strongly about this...But can we just take a moment to think about this...What are we really asking here...for more complexity....adding stone...refining...ingots? these all sound like difficulty vectors...For example Let us look at SE1...backpack space, grinding, welding speeds, refinement cycle times...those are all difficulty vectors making the game easier or harder based on the settings. I am in the crowd of lets have ALL the complexity and difficulty...but really these should be options of the masocist Engineers. Let them build and design the game to get AS MANY engineers up and running as possible and give us the difficulty vectors later as we got with SE1...I can wait to torture myself...but I also want my seven year old to WANT to build cool stuff like his dad and not have an existential crisis.
In conclusion I think we will probably get ALL these things in the end and if not there will be a mod for it eventually but I am completely ok with that not even being a thought right now at KEEN...focus on making the game playable, fun and engaging for a wider audience....add features, smash bugs and give us all the blocks and goodies....then lets really think about giving us those difficulty vectors and complexity.
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