Production machines make what?

4Peace ●

Can’t agree more.

The Smelter isn’t really doing what its name suggests. And so far, there’s no larger variant of it. It seems like it’s meant to stay relevant throughout the entire game instead of becoming obsolete once you unlock the Refinery — but then why is it so small?

Right now, the production chain feels inverted:

The Smelter is the first production block, processing large volumes of raw ore into the most commonly used materials — yet it’s the smallest.
The Assembler, which handles medium-tier mass production, is bigger.
The Fabricator, making microchips is somehow the largest.

To me, it should almost be the other way around. The highest production volume in the entire chain flows through ore processing. The Smelter should logically be the largest or at least have a much bigger late-game variant. Alternatively, the Refinery could simply be expanded to produce everything the Smelter does.

About Ingots

Ingots are a very clean abstraction layer for gameplay.

Why do we have things like silver rods and lead bars, but not universal refined materials for the most basic resources like iron? We would benefit far more from having a consistent, unified refined material layer for common resources than from having specialized refined items for rarely used ones.

The Assembler and Fabricator already resemble advanced 3D printers. In real life, 3D printers use prepared filaments or powders — not raw ore. In game terms, ingots perfectly represent that abstraction.

Literally every other game uses this kind of abstraction because it helps:

Make production blocks simpler and single purpose
Simplifies balancing and inventory management
Makes the system intuitive for new players, because it is so commonly used

Any new player would understand “ingots” within seconds and instantly know what to do.

Right now, the system feels unclear and fragmented.

If there is a unique gameplay philosophy behind this new structure — that’s completely fine. But could you at least explain the intent from a gameplay perspective? Maybe you’re building something innovative and equally valid — but it would really help to understand the reasoning behind how these production blocks are currently designed (or planned to work).

And if the argument is “simplify things for new players,” then it’s just a big NO from me.

I’m not saying SE1 had a perfect system — it was far from perfect.

Refining times were greatly exaggerated. Even with plenty of power, you often had to build hundreds of refineries just to process certain ores within a reasonable timeframe for a single game session.

There was also no proper waste management. Instead, we had the harmful concept of all voxel materials converting into generic stone ore — which was almost useless and extremely frustrating. Players were often forced to build additional systems just to automatically eject stone during mining. That’s far from an ideal waste-management design.

Waste should be produced after refining, not during mining. And any leftover waste should either:

Still have some meaningful use, or
Be completely optional via game settings for players who don’t enjoy that mechanic

I could go on listing things that weren’t optimal in SE1.

But at the same time, many things were done very well. Completely skipping over what worked — instead of improving and iterating on it — feels wrong. It undermines the huge effort that went into building solid, tested systems that players already understood and appreciated.

Can’t agree more.

The Smelter isn’t really doing what its name suggests. And so far, there’s no larger variant of it. It seems like it’s meant to stay relevant throughout the entire game instead of becoming obsolete once you unlock the Refinery — but then why is it so small?

Right now, the production chain feels inverted:

The Smelter is the first production block, processing large volumes of raw ore into the most commonly used materials — yet it’s the smallest.
The Assembler, which handles medium-tier mass production, is bigger.
The Fabricator, making microchips is somehow the largest.

To me, it should almost be the other way around. The highest production volume in the entire chain flows through ore processing. The Smelter should logically be the largest or at least have a much bigger late-game variant. Alternatively, the Refinery could simply be expanded to produce everything the Smelter does.

About Ingots

Ingots are a very clean abstraction layer for gameplay.

Why do we have things like silver rods and lead bars, but not universal refined materials for the most basic resources like iron? We would benefit far more from having a consistent, unified refined material layer for common resources than from having specialized refined items for rarely used ones.

The Assembler and Fabricator already resemble advanced 3D printers. In real life, 3D printers use prepared filaments or powders — not raw ore. In game terms, ingots perfectly represent that abstraction.

Literally every other game uses this kind of abstraction because it helps:

Make production blocks simpler and single purpose
Simplifies balancing and inventory management
Makes the system intuitive for new players, because it is so commonly used

Any new player would understand “ingots” within seconds and instantly know what to do.

Right now, the system feels unclear and fragmented.

If there is a unique gameplay philosophy behind this new structure — that’s completely fine. But could you at least explain the intent from a gameplay perspective? Maybe you’re building something innovative and equally valid — but it would really help to understand the reasoning behind how these production blocks are currently designed (or planned to work).

And if the argument is “simplify things for new players,” then it’s just a big NO from me.

I’m not saying SE1 had a perfect system — it was far from perfect.

Refining times were greatly exaggerated. Even with plenty of power, you often had to build hundreds of refineries just to process certain ores within a reasonable timeframe for a single game session.

There was also no proper waste management. Instead, we had the harmful concept of all voxel materials converting into generic stone ore — which was almost useless and extremely frustrating. Players were often forced to build additional systems just to automatically eject stone during mining. That’s far from an ideal waste-management design.

Waste should be produced after refining, not during mining. And any leftover waste should either:

Still have some meaningful use, or
Be completely optional via game settings for players who don’t enjoy that mechanic

I could go on listing things that weren’t optimal in SE1.

But at the same time, many things were done very well. Completely skipping over what worked — instead of improving and iterating on it — feels wrong. It undermines the huge effort that went into building solid, tested systems that players already understood and appreciated.

1

Deon Beauchamp ●

Absolutely!

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2

4Peace ● ●

Can’t agree more.

The Smelter isn’t really doing what its name suggests. And so far, there’s no larger variant of it. It seems like it’s meant to stay relevant throughout the entire game instead of becoming obsolete once you unlock the Refinery — but then why is it so small?

Right now, the production chain feels inverted:

The Smelter is the first production block, processing large volumes of raw ore into the most commonly used materials — yet it’s the smallest.
The Assembler, which handles medium-tier mass production, is bigger.
The Fabricator, making microchips is somehow the largest.

To me, it should almost be the other way around. The highest production volume in the entire chain flows through ore processing. The Smelter should logically be the largest or at least have a much bigger late-game variant. Alternatively, the Refinery could simply be expanded to produce everything the Smelter does.

About Ingots

Ingots are a very clean abstraction layer for gameplay.

Why do we have things like silver rods and lead bars, but not universal refined materials for the most basic resources like iron? We would benefit far more from having a consistent, unified refined material layer for common resources than from having specialized refined items for rarely used ones.

The Assembler and Fabricator already resemble advanced 3D printers. In real life, 3D printers use prepared filaments or powders — not raw ore. In game terms, ingots perfectly represent that abstraction.

Literally every other game uses this kind of abstraction because it helps:

Make production blocks simpler and single purpose
Simplifies balancing and inventory management
Makes the system intuitive for new players, because it is so commonly used

Any new player would understand “ingots” within seconds and instantly know what to do.

Right now, the system feels unclear and fragmented.

If there is a unique gameplay philosophy behind this new structure — that’s completely fine. But could you at least explain the intent from a gameplay perspective? Maybe you’re building something innovative and equally valid — but it would really help to understand the reasoning behind how these production blocks are currently designed (or planned to work).

And if the argument is “simplify things for new players,” then it’s just a big NO from me.

I’m not saying SE1 had a perfect system — it was far from perfect.

Refining times were greatly exaggerated. Even with plenty of power, you often had to build hundreds of refineries just to process certain ores within a reasonable timeframe for a single game session.

There was also no proper waste management. Instead, we had the harmful concept of all voxel materials converting into generic stone ore — which was almost useless and extremely frustrating. Players were often forced to build additional systems just to automatically eject stone during mining. That’s far from an ideal waste-management design.

Waste should be produced after refining, not during mining. And any leftover waste should either:

Still have some meaningful use, or
Be completely optional via game settings for players who don’t enjoy that mechanic

I could go on listing things that weren’t optimal in SE1.

But at the same time, many things were done very well. Completely skipping over what worked — instead of improving and iterating on it — feels wrong. It undermines the huge effort that went into building solid, tested systems that players already understood and appreciated.

Can’t agree more.

The Smelter isn’t really doing what its name suggests. And so far, there’s no larger variant of it. It seems like it’s meant to stay relevant throughout the entire game instead of becoming obsolete once you unlock the Refinery — but then why is it so small?

Right now, the production chain feels inverted:

The Smelter is the first production block, processing large volumes of raw ore into the most commonly used materials — yet it’s the smallest.
The Assembler, which handles medium-tier mass production, is bigger.
The Fabricator, making microchips is somehow the largest.

To me, it should almost be the other way around. The highest production volume in the entire chain flows through ore processing. The Smelter should logically be the largest or at least have a much bigger late-game variant. Alternatively, the Refinery could simply be expanded to produce everything the Smelter does.

About Ingots

Ingots are a very clean abstraction layer for gameplay.

Why do we have things like silver rods and lead bars, but not universal refined materials for the most basic resources like iron? We would benefit far more from having a consistent, unified refined material layer for common resources than from having specialized refined items for rarely used ones.

The Assembler and Fabricator already resemble advanced 3D printers. In real life, 3D printers use prepared filaments or powders — not raw ore. In game terms, ingots perfectly represent that abstraction.

Literally every other game uses this kind of abstraction because it helps:

Make production blocks simpler and single purpose
Simplifies balancing and inventory management
Makes the system intuitive for new players, because it is so commonly used

Any new player would understand “ingots” within seconds and instantly know what to do.

Right now, the system feels unclear and fragmented.

If there is a unique gameplay philosophy behind this new structure — that’s completely fine. But could you at least explain the intent from a gameplay perspective? Maybe you’re building something innovative and equally valid — but it would really help to understand the reasoning behind how these production blocks are currently designed (or planned to work).

And if the argument is “simplify things for new players,” then it’s just a big NO from me.

I’m not saying SE1 had a perfect system — it was far from perfect.

Refining times were greatly exaggerated. Even with plenty of power, you often had to build hundreds of refineries just to process certain ores within a reasonable timeframe for a single game session.

There was also no proper waste management. Instead, we had the harmful concept of all voxel materials converting into generic stone ore — which was almost useless and extremely frustrating. Players were often forced to build additional systems just to automatically eject stone during mining. That’s far from an ideal waste-management design.

Waste should be produced after refining, not during mining. And any leftover waste should either:

Still have some meaningful use, or
Be completely optional via game settings for players who don’t enjoy that mechanic

I could go on listing things that weren’t optimal in SE1.

But at the same time, many things were done very well. Completely skipping over what worked — instead of improving and iterating on it — feels wrong. It undermines the huge effort that went into building solid, tested systems that players already understood and appreciated.

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1

Jrolla ●

Um, smelter is tier 1, refinery is tier 2, assembler is tier 3, fabricator is tier 4... Believe I listed them in proper order. You don't upgrade them, you build the higher tier block just like SE1... They all make different components so ALL are needed and not replaceable by upgraded block tier! You will know what you need to build because you won't be able to build tier 4 without tier 3 let alone have it unlocked... Not too complicated here! In the production tab you can toggle between production blocks, meaning it literally is simple to find what you need...

Ingots are obsolete, not even needed in reality if our society wasn't so inefficient. Like, why would you not smelt straight into molds of your product instead of a mold to make a block(which you need to re-smelt to put into your product mold)? An efficient society wouldn't waste their time or resources creating an unnecessary middle step, to create the exact same product at the end. Unless SE2 changes the weight ratios, ingots are literally pointless in game. As it is, the weight of the ore needed to make a component is the exact same as the final component. AKA there is no mass loss, making ingots "purified mass" non existent! Instead of ingots, you have a lot more components to work with.

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Deon Beauchamp ●

I hope, as the game is refined(pun), the production chain will improve and make sense in the future. In it's current form the production chain is a functional place holder. In no way does the current production chain make it feel like it is fun, interesting, intelligent, or will have a good influence on game strategies used by the players.

Honestly, if another game like SE appears with a production chain that has technical appeal, I would evaluate it for its worth and consider jumping ship if it measured up. I do not play other sandbox engineering games as nothing much stands up to the play hours that SE has given me, a good time had.

My problem is that I find myself looking for 'that' new game, I have hope for SE2 to be that game. For the most part Keen is doing an excellent job, the inclusion of the community of players in the development of the game by Keen is par to none.

If there is a need for expediency in having wider appeal, then there should also be an expediency in maintaining their most enduring player base and bringing back those long time players that have left due to frustration.

SE2 can not be a better game by being an easier game at the expense of depth. Ingots, scrap, stone and process waste are part of the depth that has not been re-included into SE2 from SE1 yet.

There are other issues beyond the scope of the original posted comment that I will refrain from mentioning. It is fair reason that not everyone can be satisfied, but the more SE2 tones down its feature appeal the easier it will be for the competition to overtake, and I do see that the competition is looking at SE, seeing a feature and saying 'we can do that'.

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Jrolla ●

Um ok, and why does SE2 require ingots? We don't require them now for jack squat and you're talking 60 years in our future when their ship launched, and 11,000ish years in our future when it arrived. So why does everything have to abide by your vision of engineering, when they aren't even from Earth in the first place? You had better demand jump drives, ion thrusters, and gravity gens be removed from SE, they don't exist in IRL... Scrap I will give you, the other examples are just your preference and familiarity. I don't need to see every single detail of the smelting process, you aren't collecting the other chemicals you need to smelt besides the ore, this isn't reality TV it's a freaking game. WTF is so much easier about ore turning into components instead of ingots hmm? Your argument on this one is literally stupid(unless SE2 corrects weight ratios through production). If 10kg of iron ore are needed to make 1 steel plate, and that 1 steel plate also weighs 10kg, why in the world would I waste my time making a 10kg ingot for no reason whatsoever? I'll make the steel plate, tyvm!

Curious how not bogging down your PC throwing useless stone out of your ship creating all the moving rocks, is something you miss? Literally, stone was the dumbest thing about SE1. Necessary to start, but once you built your first refining block practically useless and nothing but a waste of memory! If you bring up landscaping.... I'm not here to design roads, there's a game for that already!

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Deon Beauchamp ●

It sounds like creative mode would provide better game for you. IRL ion drives exist and gravity generation is being worked on. Jump drives are a sci-fi element and SE magic is often used where coding and overheads are otherwise expensive, but provide satisfactory game play. The game parts that I have previously mentioned were used and implemented in PC tech several generations back, no biggy with minimum SE2 PC spec.

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Jrolla ●

Um no, I strictly play survival. Creative is boring... Ion drives irl are useless lol, I wouldn't be claiming they exist when they can barely move a little satellite let alone a ship! Gravity generation is being worked on? There's literally no physics we know of that allows it besides a rotating centrifuge... What?

Edit: You have no idea what se2 is going to run like with all systems implemented without using ejectors on stone. It already has memory issues, locking up your memory and not releasing it causing stutters after long periods of play, cpus running at 75%not doing anything in game, among other issues. I'm not saying the optimization update likely near official release won't fix it or them all, but they do already exist without dumping stone non stop mining.

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Jrolla ●

As for ingots, we can directly 3d print using meteoric iron today. It is typically 95% pure not requiring any smelting and here's your proof.

"The iron found in iron meteorites was one of the earliest sources of usable iron available to humans, due to the malleability and ductility of the meteoric iron, before the development of smelting that signaled the beginning of the Iron Age."

I don't know about you, but I'd say a vast majority of my mining in SE is done in space. Funny thing there is, in our solar system alone meteorite iron is roughly 500 tons just in known asteroids that we know the composition of. I know here on planet earth some elements like cobalt are typically drawn out of other mineral deposits, but a lot of ores are in big specific deposits too. So, why wouldn't asteroids that aren't oxide ore, but metallic ore, not already be pure enough like se2 has made them? To differentiate between planetary and asteroid deposits, well that might be difficult to code(I'm no programmer).

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4Peace ●

What are you talking about? Right now you can build an assembler almost immediately, skipping the smelter altogether, since it’s nearly useless in its current state. And everything is still subject to change. The original production scheme the developers showed us wasn’t linear at all.

Ingots are obsolete in games? I really don’t understand that argument. They worked very well in SE1 and in virtually every other good survival game. If you prefer a system without ingots, that’s fine — but please try to look at this from different angles, like many community members have done, before drawing conclusions or calling someone’s arguments “stupid.”

And I’m not sure what the concept of “stone” has to do with this discussion. There are dedicated topics about stone already. If it worries you, it might help to explore the different perspectives people have shared on it before assuming the worst.

This particular topic is about the confusion created by the new set of production blocks, and I fully agree that the confusion is real.

The game’s “Survival Foundations” are clearly still a work in progress and far from being finished or fully designed. If the developers want honest and constructive feedback, it would really help if they explained their vision more clearly. There are still many unanswered questions about the new production mechanics and their impact on gameplay.

I would personally love to see more in-depth interviews where the developers walk us through how all these survival systems are supposed to fit together in the context of this new game. So far, we’ve seen impressive technical achievements — beautiful planets, water, weather, and other features — but in the end, what truly matters is the game to play.

Right now, “VS2.0” feels more like “Planets and Contracts” than “Survival Foundations.” Hopefully, the survival aspect will receive the same level of attention as development continues.

What are you talking about? Right now you can build an assembler almost immediately, skipping the smelter altogether, since it’s nearly useless in its current state. And everything is still subject to change. The original production scheme the developers showed us wasn’t linear at all.

Ingots are obsolete in games? I really don’t understand that argument. They worked very well in SE1 and in virtually every other good survival game. If you prefer a system without ingots, that’s fine — but please try to look at this from different angles, like many community members have done, before drawing conclusions or calling someone’s arguments “stupid.”

And I’m not sure what the concept of “stone” has to do with this discussion. There are dedicated topics about stone already. If it worries you, it might help to explore the different perspectives people have shared on it before assuming the worst.

This particular topic is about the confusion created by the new set of production blocks, and I fully agree that the confusion is real.

The game’s “Survival Foundations” are clearly still a work in progress and far from being finished or fully designed. If the developers want honest and constructive feedback, it would really help if they explained their vision more clearly. There are still many unanswered questions about the new production mechanics and their impact on gameplay.

I would personally love to see more in-depth interviews where the developers walk us through how all these survival systems are supposed to fit together in the context of this new game. So far, we’ve seen impressive technical achievements — beautiful planets, water, weather, and other features — but in the end, what truly matters is the game to play.

Right now, “VS2.0” feels more like “Planets and Contracts” than “Survival Foundations.” Hopefully, the survival aspect will receive the same level of attention as development continues.

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Jrolla ●

You literally can't skip the smelter, you need lead bar buddy! Wow... And you ask what I'm talking about? LOL...

How many times do I have to say it for you to actually read it??? With the mechanics as is in SE2, ingots are completely obsolete because 10kg of iron = 1 steel plate / 1 steel plate = 10kg(numbers are just numbers for example)... WTF you need an ingot for? It saves you no weight and creates an extra step, where's the pro to this???? Absolutely no where! Yes they work great in SE1, I never disputed this and actually agreed with you on some other thread previously. I also stated this exact fact for my reasoning before, not to mention you don't need ingots in the first place! The argument for them under these mechanics literally is stupid, so? Funny how you ignore the fact you just got proven wrong about 3D printing with ore, aka skipping ingots, while still arguing for ingots... Remember, think of the production blocks as 3D printers, because unless we have some mini green aliens locked up inside those little blocks it is an automated process, aka 3D printer... One single smelter alone is also larger than the blocks in game, not to mention a factory!

Let me put it this way, maybe you'll actually pick up what I'm putting down... If our society was like that of Star Trek, it's 1 world instead of 500 countries. Said society wouldn't transport ore 1500 miles to sell to another country, instead it would be mined, smelted and fabricated in one place! Like, is that really that hard to grasp? When you play city building games, do you build your mines on one side of your territory and your smelter on the opposite? No!!! Do you build your houses on the opposite side as your market? No!!! Like, hello McFly! Because playing games like that we go for efficiency right? Can you honestly say our society does anything efficiently? Sure doesn't in this regard, transporting ore/ingots thousands of miles to sell to someone else to actually make the product, that they in turn sell back to you for a profit... Nope! That's not efficiency, that's technically greed, all about the money... Get it yet?

VS2.0(I assume 2.0 added the tutorial, I started actually playing after 2.0 was released purposely so it's all I've seen) is testing the tutorial more-so than survival imo, I mean bro we don't even have O2 yet and you're talking about true survival mode??? LOL... We also have no idea what the starting options will be for survival, though I would assume similar options as SE1. We do know for a fact though, that the tutorial aspect that gives you all the free crap will be an option!

I do agree with all of you on the confusion of the production blocks, but it took me 5 seconds to figure them out after built... I would fully agree on renaming a couple, especially the refinery and smelter. Aside from odd names, there's nothing difficult about them besides being different(no ingots) than YOU are USED to in SE1, familiarity...

I'm not the one who brought up stone, I replied! Again, so? Stone is part of SE1 production chain, totally relevant to this topic "Production machines make what?"

Why would the devs reveal systems they haven't worked on yet? Come on man, really? I can tell you I've heard the AI is supposed to be much improved, including diplomatic actions/reactions, no longer just going *SPLAT* on planet entry when hostile, screenshot of what looked like a player controlled fleet(AI drones flying in a fleet formation with player ship is what it looked like), but so far it's all speculation from screenshots sprinkled with some hints from devs. This is literally off topic, so stopping there with this part.(after you brought up stone not being on topic lol)...

You literally can't skip the smelter, you need lead bar buddy! Wow... And you ask what I'm talking about? LOL...

How many times do I have to say it for you to actually read it??? With the mechanics as is in SE2, ingots are completely obsolete because 10kg of iron = 1 steel plate / 1 steel plate = 10kg(numbers are just numbers for example)... WTF you need an ingot for? It saves you no weight and creates an extra step, where's the pro to this???? Absolutely no where! Yes they work great in SE1, I never disputed this and actually agreed with you on some other thread previously. I also stated this exact fact for my reasoning before, not to mention you don't need ingots in the first place! The argument for them under these mechanics literally is stupid, so? Funny how you ignore the fact you just got proven wrong about 3D printing with ore, aka skipping ingots, while still arguing for ingots... Remember, think of the production blocks as 3D printers, because unless we have some mini green aliens locked up inside those little blocks it is an automated process, aka 3D printer... One single smelter alone is also larger than the blocks in game, not to mention a factory!

Let me put it this way, maybe you'll actually pick up what I'm putting down... If our society was like that of Star Trek, it's 1 world instead of 500 countries. Said society wouldn't transport ore 1500 miles to sell to another country, instead it would be mined, smelted and fabricated in one place! Like, is that really that hard to grasp? When you play city building games, do you build your mines on one side of your territory and your smelter on the opposite? No!!! Do you build your houses on the opposite side as your market? No!!! Like, hello McFly! Because playing games like that we go for efficiency right? Can you honestly say our society does anything efficiently? Sure doesn't in this regard, transporting ore/ingots thousands of miles to sell to someone else to actually make the product, that they in turn sell back to you for a profit... Nope! That's not efficiency, that's technically greed, all about the money... Get it yet?

VS2.0(I assume 2.0 added the tutorial, I started actually playing after 2.0 was released purposely so it's all I've seen) is testing the tutorial more-so than survival imo, I mean bro we don't even have O2 yet and you're talking about true survival mode??? LOL... We also have no idea what the starting options will be for survival, though I would assume similar options as SE1. We do know for a fact though, that the tutorial aspect that gives you all the free crap will be an option!

I do agree with all of you on the confusion of the production blocks, but it took me 5 seconds to figure them out after built... I would fully agree on renaming a couple, especially the refinery and smelter. Aside from odd names, there's nothing difficult about them besides being different(no ingots) than YOU are USED to in SE1, familiarity...

I'm not the one who brought up stone, I replied! Again, so? Stone is part of SE1 production chain, totally relevant to this topic "Production machines make what?"

Why would the devs reveal systems they haven't worked on yet? Come on man, really? I can tell you I've heard the AI is supposed to be much improved, including diplomatic actions/reactions, no longer just going *SPLAT* on planet entry when hostile, screenshot of what looked like a player controlled fleet(AI drones flying in a fleet formation with player ship is what it looked like), but so far it's all speculation from screenshots sprinkled with some hints from devs. This is literally off topic, so stopping there with this part.(after you brought up stone not being on topic lol)...

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Production machines make what?

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