My experience running a trade station: Full feedback & suggestions
I have been playing Space Engineers since its earliest days and have 3,900 hours of playtime logged.
I have been playing on keen servers for quite some time as well, but lately I've tried something I never have - I built and ran a major trade station, using all of my PCU on that.
I have inventories of ores, ingots, and components and buy/sell them. I keep track of my income and expenses, and try to make a well balanced business that supplies the other players on the list ample opportunities to make money doing contracts, trade runs, etc. There are beds and docking pads people are free to log off in, inside a safe zone open to all. I even built lounge areas, observation deck with vending machine and jukebox, kitchen, and a learning center with LCDs full of advice for newbies on different topics.
One of the things I mainly experienced is the game is far more social than I've ever experienced it. People come and go from the station a lot and it's a fun experience. I help a lot of new people who spawn at the medical room on the station too.
But there are some issues with this kind of economy in Space Engineers, and I have some suggestions for addressing them.
ISSUE:
The main issue is that people sell FAR more than they ever buy. Ideally, you might think I could buy ores from miners, turn them into ingots or components, and sell them for more. Or I could even buy ingots for more than the players' cost to make them, but then sell them at a profit to other players not wanting to make them.
But none of this kind activity takes place. People want to sell off what they can to build up a large nest egg of space credits, and then they only buy when they are in a pinch or for charitable reasons.
For one, the store blocks do not let me sell below a certain base price. So I can't really undercut the NPC stations by much. But that is actually reasonable given that such a thing could be abused, and it's actually more realistic given that there are things in a real economy that would prevent me from going too low and the restriction simulates that and keeps the economy somewhat balanced. There is no limit to how low I will pay to buy something to those willing to sell however. These restrictions aren't really the source of the problem.
SOURCE OF THE ISSUE:
The real source of this issue is that there is no division of labor. The thing that makes it more rational to purchase certain goods is because there are some goods I can't make myself, or can't make as well or as efficiently.
Why buy components if I could just make them myself in a snap? Even if you consider saving PCU by not having refineries or assemblers, for example, and only drilling and selling ores, then buying components, the PCU you save doing this is minimal.
I know it would go against the vision of a sandbox building game to fully restrict people from doing certain things. We want everyone to be able to do everything.
But, what if there were certain areas players could specialize in, which would give them an incentive to purchasing the services they aren't as good at? Here's what I recommend...
RECOMMENDATION: ENGINEER SPECIALTIES
Suppose there were five types of certifications engineers could earn in game, by doing certain kinds of activities long enough. You can only have one of these at any given time. If you want to earn another, you can but you would give up the prior and have to re-earn it if you even wanted to go back.
The idea behind this is that it should take some time and effort so the specialty couldn't be switched on and off at the drop of the hat. Otherwise, we would be back to square one, where everyone effectively can do anything as good as another on demand.
The specialties appear beside your name, and give you certain bonuses in efficiency when doing different parts of a Space Engineer's duties. Here they are, with the bonuses they grant...
MINER:
- Faster drilling rates with handheld, small ship, and large ship drills.
- Further scanning range with ore detectors on handheld drills, small, and large ships.
- When you drop ore into a refinery directly, it processes at a faster rate with better yield.
BUILDER:
- When you build components with assemblers, they build faster and the amount of ingots required to build them is less.
- Welders (handheld, small ship, large ship) weld more quickly.
- Grinders (handheld, small ship, large ship) grind more quickly.
- (perhaps?) Blocks built by a builder operate at a little higher efficiency, either performing a little better and/or requiring less energy.
PILOT:
- The effective mass of a ship or vehicle is less than its actual mass. This increases its effective thrust/acceleration, and relative gyro power, making the ship more maneuverable and faster than it would be in another's hands.
- Your top speed (m/s) is higher than normal (perhaps 10-20% more).
- Jump Drives go further than normal and recharge faster.
SOLDIER:
- The invisible circle within which bullet trajectory spreads randomly is smaller. In other words, rifles and all forms of turrets are more accurate when controlled directly.
- Perhaps weapon damage slightly better.
- Max Health reads at "120" instead of "100".
- Can run a little faster and jump a little further.
TRADER:
- Lower store listing fees and transaction fees.
- Can sell items for a lower minimum than normal.
- Longer lasting Zone Chips.
- Safe Zones consume less energy/hour.
- Discounts are NPC trade stations.
EARNING & SWITCHING SPECIALTIES
Earning these specialties would involve a certain number of hours doing activities relevant to those specialties. You must first select one of the five specialties and declare you are in training for it. Only progress on that track is then gained. After you achieve the title nothing more needs to be done. But if you ever want to change, you simply declare you are beginning training on a different specialty. You remain the first specialty while you accrue progress on the next. Once you achieve the required experience, it asks if you want to switch. If you do, then everything resets again. So, it will always take time to switch between them.
MASTER SPECIALISTS
As an option to this recommendation, there could be further experience you could continue to gain in a specialty, that is much harder. But if you do, then you're granted the status of "Master Soldier" or "Master Pilot" etc. This would be just the same, but the percentages and amounts of the bonuses to those activities would be greater.
CONCLUSION
By having a freely chosen and flexible system like this, a division of labor is created. It then becomes the case that we need something from one another. And mutual dependence has always been the basis of communities and commerce. You can do something better than I can, which makes it more efficient for me to spend money for those services than do it myself.
I like this feedback
I had a similar idea previously -- even called it "Specializations" similar to your proposal here. It would make the game more RPG and less sandbox, so it died on the vine. Really cool idea though.
Once thing I've done on my own server to create specialized player roles, is I directly encourage faction leaders to focus their faction's action on one of the behaviors. Pirating (npcs mostly), raw material trade, ship building and sell, etc.
I also have tiered tech blocks with restricted tech components available, so people do have to pick which kinds of super powered tech blocks they build, so I do have some players that invest all their tech into refineries and assemblers, and others that invested it into better guns.
Reach out if you'd like to play on a server that encourages this kind of thing :-)
I had a similar idea previously -- even called it "Specializations" similar to your proposal here. It would make the game more RPG and less sandbox, so it died on the vine. Really cool idea though.
Once thing I've done on my own server to create specialized player roles, is I directly encourage faction leaders to focus their faction's action on one of the behaviors. Pirating (npcs mostly), raw material trade, ship building and sell, etc.
I also have tiered tech blocks with restricted tech components available, so people do have to pick which kinds of super powered tech blocks they build, so I do have some players that invest all their tech into refineries and assemblers, and others that invested it into better guns.
Reach out if you'd like to play on a server that encourages this kind of thing :-)
Something like this would be nice but I don't think Keen implement the statistics of grids using different players.
More player stats.
Something like this would be nice but I don't think Keen implement the statistics of grids using different players.
More player stats.
This is an excellent idea, and it could be implemented so easily! This would make the Economy much more interesting and fun to play with. I really hope Keen considers this.
This is an excellent idea, and it could be implemented so easily! This would make the Economy much more interesting and fun to play with. I really hope Keen considers this.
Thanks for the replies everyone!
Yes, I've heard about reactions against RPG elements. I understand not wanting to go "full RPG" but, in reality, engineers have specializations and they work as a team because some engineers can do things better than others, and vice versa. This needs to be represented, not only because it's accurate to being a space engineer, but also because reliance on one another is the cement what makes teamwork relevant - and therefore game community.
If we are all equal in ability in all things, there is no mutual reliance and no impetus to get together and no foundation for community. In game marketing terms, the bonds and friendships interdependence would encourage would reinforce attachment to the game.
The fact that an economy requires division of labor to really function well is only the latest new reason to introduce specialties.
Thanks for the replies everyone!
Yes, I've heard about reactions against RPG elements. I understand not wanting to go "full RPG" but, in reality, engineers have specializations and they work as a team because some engineers can do things better than others, and vice versa. This needs to be represented, not only because it's accurate to being a space engineer, but also because reliance on one another is the cement what makes teamwork relevant - and therefore game community.
If we are all equal in ability in all things, there is no mutual reliance and no impetus to get together and no foundation for community. In game marketing terms, the bonds and friendships interdependence would encourage would reinforce attachment to the game.
The fact that an economy requires division of labor to really function well is only the latest new reason to introduce specialties.
I have another suggestion that will keep the sandbox feel. It was first set to address inactive players and server performance but by adding supply and demand to it will have similar effect to your suggestions.
My suggestion is add a few types of licenses for certain blocks like assemblers, refineries, drills and turret. Players need to buy a license to keep his blocks operating (same as the safe zone chips but for days and not hours).
Then let the license price go up and down depending on supply and demand at the NPC trade station. If everyone is buying drill license the the prices go up for that type of license and outers go down. Admin can set a limited amount of ever type to limit the supply and also to keep up server performance.
Also add discount for some licenst types att NPC factions that correspond to their business focus (ming, ship buldning, weapons).
Also see my suggestion "Availability of ore deposits difficult option"
think taht might also have psoitiv effect for trade with harder settings https://support.keenswh.com/spaceengineers/pc/topic/availability-of-ore-deposits-difficult-option
I have another suggestion that will keep the sandbox feel. It was first set to address inactive players and server performance but by adding supply and demand to it will have similar effect to your suggestions.
My suggestion is add a few types of licenses for certain blocks like assemblers, refineries, drills and turret. Players need to buy a license to keep his blocks operating (same as the safe zone chips but for days and not hours).
Then let the license price go up and down depending on supply and demand at the NPC trade station. If everyone is buying drill license the the prices go up for that type of license and outers go down. Admin can set a limited amount of ever type to limit the supply and also to keep up server performance.
Also add discount for some licenst types att NPC factions that correspond to their business focus (ming, ship buldning, weapons).
Also see my suggestion "Availability of ore deposits difficult option"
think taht might also have psoitiv effect for trade with harder settings https://support.keenswh.com/spaceengineers/pc/topic/availability-of-ore-deposits-difficult-option
Overall, this is a great idea. We need something like this so we don't always end up doing everything ourselves. But I'd make a few changes to make the specializations better balanced. Just to be clear, I'm assuming these are faction-based and that specializations have enough depth to make switching extremely non-trivial.
First of all, trade stations should have something that isn't just trade to them. If you can't get people to come to your trade station, you're effectively stuck with no spec bonuses and a pointless station. Because of this, I'd move assembler bonuses to the trade spec.
The mining + refining is kind of annoying to me. I don't like how mining is too weak to be a good spec by itself, and I also don't like how refining feels like a station-y thing to do. But the two together are good enough, I suppose.
Building seems a little weak alone, but hear me out. Blocks built up to functionality by builders get bonuses. Damage resistance, lower power cost, etc. Nothing that conflicts with other specs' domains, but useful nonetheless. In any case, they keep the bonus when transferred between factions, and lose it if they get repaired by a non-builder. This means that a builders' faction can run a business effectively, because the bonuses from a master-level shipyard would be essential in any direct PvP action. Additionally, advanced builders' ships might have self-repairing functionality with constant builder bonuses. That's already strong enough that I would get rid of additional welding and grinding speed.
And finally, combat only gets extra damage on owned block weapons. It's simpler than messing with accuracy and other stats, is still relevant when suits are ineffective in combat, and doesn't get non-combat bonuses like the others. I think this is balanced enough, given that they don't really have a place in the production chain but can win most fights with maybe 10-20% extra damage.
To be honest, I'd just drop the piloting spec. It discourages interaction by giving an easy out from any fight, is generally strong outside of combat, and doesn't have many good interactions with the other specs. Sure, there might be a bit of demand for long-distance transportation, but not enough that you could make a faction based on bonuses for that. It seems more like a hermit's spec for self-reliance and convenience.
Overall, this is a great idea. We need something like this so we don't always end up doing everything ourselves. But I'd make a few changes to make the specializations better balanced. Just to be clear, I'm assuming these are faction-based and that specializations have enough depth to make switching extremely non-trivial.
First of all, trade stations should have something that isn't just trade to them. If you can't get people to come to your trade station, you're effectively stuck with no spec bonuses and a pointless station. Because of this, I'd move assembler bonuses to the trade spec.
The mining + refining is kind of annoying to me. I don't like how mining is too weak to be a good spec by itself, and I also don't like how refining feels like a station-y thing to do. But the two together are good enough, I suppose.
Building seems a little weak alone, but hear me out. Blocks built up to functionality by builders get bonuses. Damage resistance, lower power cost, etc. Nothing that conflicts with other specs' domains, but useful nonetheless. In any case, they keep the bonus when transferred between factions, and lose it if they get repaired by a non-builder. This means that a builders' faction can run a business effectively, because the bonuses from a master-level shipyard would be essential in any direct PvP action. Additionally, advanced builders' ships might have self-repairing functionality with constant builder bonuses. That's already strong enough that I would get rid of additional welding and grinding speed.
And finally, combat only gets extra damage on owned block weapons. It's simpler than messing with accuracy and other stats, is still relevant when suits are ineffective in combat, and doesn't get non-combat bonuses like the others. I think this is balanced enough, given that they don't really have a place in the production chain but can win most fights with maybe 10-20% extra damage.
To be honest, I'd just drop the piloting spec. It discourages interaction by giving an easy out from any fight, is generally strong outside of combat, and doesn't have many good interactions with the other specs. Sure, there might be a bit of demand for long-distance transportation, but not enough that you could make a faction based on bonuses for that. It seems more like a hermit's spec for self-reliance and convenience.
I've played games where thy specialize stuff in those type of categories.. What happens is.. everyone becomes a fighter specialty and uses the "farmers" as their personal piggy bank.. it sucks.
I've played games where thy specialize stuff in those type of categories.. What happens is.. everyone becomes a fighter specialty and uses the "farmers" as their personal piggy bank.. it sucks.
This is what happens when a sandbox game tries to be something it's not. SE trying to be EVE Online, what a laugh.
This is what happens when a sandbox game tries to be something it's not. SE trying to be EVE Online, what a laugh.
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