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Large Ship wheels have serious design flaws

Thales shared this bug 8 months ago
Reported – Awaiting fix

I began on Pertam and it's a planet perfect for wheeled vehicles. I built and use small ship wheeled vehicles a lot. After I have enough resources I built a large ship wheeled vehicle. Problems I encountered:

1. Wheels don't have enough traction to move the vehicle even slight uphills (I overcome this issue by using powerful wheel mod)

2. Suspension has two problems:

a. There's no min/max suspension height, so wheels get destroyed if suspension squeeze in to allow wheel base touch ground.

b. Suspension strength doesn't seem to get harder as it squeeze in.

With these two problems, suspension doesn't work well. If I increase suspension strength further, then some of the wheels don't touch ground most of the time that makes vehicle lose traction even more.


I reported these issues as feedback two years ago but I think they should be considered as bug at this time since you've made a planet for wheeled vehicles.

Replies (5)

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For traveling faster or uphill you can always use a couple atmo or hydrogen thrusters in the direction of travel.. Just be careful when landing, if you jump off a cliff or over a ditch.. But it does improve travel speed drasticaly,

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I use powerful wheel mod, so I don't need more power atm. Suspension issue is annoying. I love the gameplay around small wheel vehicle, it works great. But I hate large ship wheel vehicle. It always end up crashing under its own weight.

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Hello, Thales!

Could you please supply a scenario/example that shows the issue you are facing with reliable steps to recreate the issue? For example, showing a vehicle you are having issues with where you would expect it to be able to move up a slight hill? I think this would be much easier than with screenshots. This way we can take a look :)

  • You can access your save files by typing %appdata% into your Windows search bar and you will be redirected to the hidden Roaming folder. After that just follow: \Roaming\SpaceEngineers\Saves. There should be a folder with your SteamID and your saves.
  • Please zip the file and attach it here. If you are having difficulty attaching files you can optionally use Google Drive. When sharing a google drive link please make sure it is set to be downloadable by anyone with the link.

Kind Regards

Laura, QA Department

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Thanks for reply. I'll try to explain with steps to recreate my point.

1. Get this vehicle (I built it) and spawn it on Pertam: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1594729153

It's 8 wheeled large offroad vehicle built for non-flat terrain.

2. Fill its single large cargo with 999999 ice. Large cargo can take more ice but this is enough for test and realistic scenario. It's possible to fill it with ~3 times heavier iron ingots or adding even more large cargo containers on this 8 wheeler. However I'm not trying to create stress test, instead I'm after for a possible/realistic survival scenario where a player move ice from source to the base using wheeled vehicle istead of costly flying vehicle.

3. Adjust suspension to make it balanced. Too high suspension strength will make some wheels wouldn't touch ground on uneven terrain and reduce its power. Too low suspension strength will make its height low to ground making it susceptible to hitting uneven ground. With its cargo filled with 999999 ice, its weight becomes 1450 tons and I found 20% suspension is ideal on Pertam. Max out wheel powers if they are not already maxed out.

4. Drive it, not only flat ground but especially uneven terrain. You should see 8 wheels even all of them touches ground with correct suspension strength, its power is weak to climb. Also you should notice that wheel suspension is susceptible to damage because of two issues: first one is wheel suspension strength doesn't get stiffer as it squeeze in and the second issue is wheel suspension can travel too much towards upwards allowing blocks hit ground easily on the level same as wheel base.


As you can see:

I used 8 wheels, not typical 4

Have only 1 cargo container

Filled it with ice not heavier iron ingots

Also maxed out wheel powers

Carefully adjusted suspension to make sure all wheels touch ground for max wheel power


Despite these moderate criterias, this vehicle is not up to the task of moving ice: Wheels are not powerful, suspension is not durable (not getting stiffer as it squeeze in).

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Pardon my intrusion, i couldnt help it :D

Maybe you will get a fix for your exploding blueprint in the next mayor update XD

Check if share inertia tensor is on for wheels.

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Hello, Thales!

Thank you for the steps and blueprint. I originally had an issue with the blueprint exploding on paste but have since re-blueprinted and this seems to be ok. I have attached a video following your steps and as you can see, forced it over a few larger obstacles but the vehicle doesn't appear to be struggling here. Would it be possible to provide a video or, a save file where I can easily reproduce the issue you are facing?

Kind Regards

Laura, QA Department

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Hey again!

I watched your video. I see you jump off cliffs to test suspension but air shock feature protects suspension in these circumstances. However I drive much more carefully in a survival game because of precious gas or cargo loss and long repair time..etc Air shock doesn't protect suspension when not jumping. This vehicle has perfect ground clearance but still gets damaged because of suspension issues: suspension doesn't get stiffer as it squeeze in and non-adjustable (or too high) suspension max/min height.

I upload two videos: one for suspension issue and one weak wheel power.


My suggestions for these issues:

1. Increase wheel power (and electric consumption as well)

2. Make suspension stiffer as it squeeze in

3. Add suspension max/min height slider

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Hello, Thales!

Thank you for the further information. I have had another look and it seems as if there isn't much clearance on the wheels/ suspension and they are sometimes catching the ground which causes the explosion. Could you edit your vehicle to provide more room for the suspension rather than being so close to the ground? I wonder if this would then stop the issue from happening? It seems every so often I will encounter the suspension scraping the ground and I result in the same issue as your suspension video. Please let me know how you get on.

Kind Regards

Laura, QA Department

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Blocks explode on contact with voxels, and that transfers the damage to nearby blocks which causes a lot more damage, same as that issue with hydrogen tanks beeing shot at, with armor it gets destroyed, without armor it withstands a lot of damage. Armor blocks act like they are made of nitroglicerin, everythingh makes them explode and they take other blocks with them.

And i belive this is beeing fixed in the "next update"?

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Hi,

This is the actual large vehicle I use in my survival game (image 1). It suffers same issue as the vehicle I previously showed.

Spotlight between the front wheels gets the first damage and it's not lower or in front of the wheel base block. It doesn't matter if there's armor block or spotlight in there, that block gets damage and destroyed because of linear suspension strength and very high non-adjustable suspension travel height (see image 2).


image 1

d9e69dae38fea8d8f79efaa3783b1af1


image 2:

a55ad49dd99b57f681bbbdb10ae6a56c

(Showing minimum suspension height when wheels facing bump which leaves not much ground clearance.)

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I quickly built a new simple vehicle that has no block on the same level of wheel base blocks for testing the suspension issue and it got damaged similarly. Wheel suspension blocks took the damage first but it was not destroyed, then it transferred the damage towards armor blocks above them and destroyed them.

d853d4f3f9751698796a0a9765dc2307

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Thats the way thinghs are now, blocks get damaged on contact. Adapt to the situation. Put a couple of 1x1 wheels (just tires) in front and in place of spotlight between the front wheels. Wheels (tires) absorb damage and dont get destroyed by impact. Use them to coushion impacts whereever your blocks get destroyed by colisions.

Its a fix for now.

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@error 404,

Do tires transfer damage to neighboring blocks?

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Hello, Thales!

Regarding this new vehicle, it would be best to provide the world with the blueprint already in it with the settings that you are finding to be an issue. This way I can see exactly how you have the vehicle setup rather than trying to copy the settings :) Please also include any reliable steps that I should take to reproduce the issue (if requred)


  • You can access your save files by typing %appdata% into your Windows search bar and you will be redirected to the hidden Roaming folder. After that just follow: \Roaming\SpaceEngineers\Saves. There should be a folder with your SteamID and your saves.
  • Please zip the file and attach it here. If you are having difficulty attaching files you can optionally use Google Drive. When sharing a google drive link please make sure it is set to be downloadable by anyone with the link.

Kind Regards

Laura, QA Department

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Hello,

I think I explained the issues clearly with multiple and simple to understand examples. Anyone who use large ship wheeled vehicle as hauler in a survival game can easily experience the issues I had which are:

1. Weak wheel power

2. Linear suspension strength

3. Too high and non-adjustable potential suspension height that leaves no ground clearance to the wheel base block

Note: Maxed out suspension strength can reduce the damage possibility but it creates another issue by making half of the wheels not touching ground on non-flat terrain that further weakens the already weak wheel power.

Reproduce: see videos in this comment:

https://support.keenswh.com/spaceengineers/pc/topic/large-ship-wheels-have-serious-design-flaws#comment-57188

( Exact same thing in the suspension video happens even to this vehicle: https://support.keenswh.com/public/attachments/d853d4f3f9751698796a0a9765dc2307.jpg )


Thanks for time.

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Hello, Thales!

Unfortunately, from the blueprint you originally provided, it does appear that the suspension is particularly low to the ground and catches the surface as previously mentioned. If you are able to provide another blueprint or save with a lot of clearance, I can test this too and see if I can reproduce your issue. :)

Kind Regards

Laura, QA Department

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Hi,

Yes suspension becomes low when it's filled with ice. So, I wrote in the 3rd step in this comment: https://support.keenswh.com/spaceengineers/pc/topic/large-ship-wheels-have-serious-design-flaws#comment-57177 to adjust suspension strength according to the weight that can be changed with the amount of cargo mass (ice in this example) and planetary gravity. I always set suspension height to highest on my offroad vehicles and adjust suspension strength according to the situation (changing cargo mass and planetary gravity) to make use of suspension properly by allowing max number of wheels touching ground on non-flat terrain. If suspension strenght is too high, then it won't work as suspension; it'll make half of the wheels not touching ground, so reduces the wheel power applied on ground to create propulsion.

(I wish there was automatic suspension feature that would increase/decrease suspension strength according to vehicle's changing cargo weight.)

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Use 5x5 wheels for more clearance or build one pair of wheels in front a block higher, like front idler on a tank, to get some contact with wheels on the ground incase of a voxel, rather than smashing a block.

Its the way wheels are now, large grid 3x3 also seems to have a very big suspension (the part that holds the wheel)


So its not unexpected for it to hit the ground if too low due to load or settings.

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Hello, Thales!

Thank you for the further information. As error 404 mentioned, it may be an option to try to 5x5 wheels in this instance. As the blueprint you originally posted is already rather low, it would drop further when filled with ice. Could you please attempt to try a larger wheen set and see if this helps your situation? It may be that this works better for you :)

Kind Regards

Laura, QA Department

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Hi,

I wrote above to adjust suspension according to the situation: planetary gravity and cargo mass. Suspension setting of the blueprint I posted is adjusted to Earth gravity and without cargo mass.

If you increase suspension too much, then it will make half of the wheels not touching ground on non-flat terrain, so it'll weaken the already weak wheel power.

5x5 wheels need more space which means less number of wheels can fit in same space. Propulsion force of 5x5 and 3x3 wheels are 100k and 60k respectively. If we divide the force by their diameter, we can see they have same power. So, using 3x3 wheels are better for more power.

What's your opinion about weak wheel power issue? I have a suggestion for that without increasing the wheel power because it's balanced this way. I suggest you to increase wheel torque inversely proportional to the speed. So, when vehicle is slow (climbing for example) torque will be higher and so vehicle will slowly be able to climb. At the same time torque will be reduced on higher speeds to prevent reaching max speed too quickly on flat terrain.

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Hello, Thales!

After speaking with a colleague, we have decided to report this with your information internally. I cannot promise they will deem this a bug, but it will certainly be looked into. I will change this thread to 'reported awaiting a fix' but as I say, it will depend on what is found after they look into this :) I really appreciate all the information you have provided for us.

Kind Regards

Laura, QA Department

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Hi,

Thanks for your patience for my persistent comments. :P

Space Engineers is already very good game and best of its class. There are also mods that can fix some of the issues thanks to its great moddability.

I'm eager to help such as by providing another test-blueprint if you need at this stage of "awaiting fix".

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Any news?

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They probably ly just buried your post and "forgot" about it. They seem to do that a lot when it comes to things that take more than 5 minutes to fix. This is just a "get rich quick" game that they thought would keep constant money flow as long as they threw out a few skins once in a while.

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