The future of Combat (How to balance Shields and Energy weapons)

ThePhoenixKnight shared this feedback 21 days ago
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In many different fictions, shields are not the end all be all of defense in combat, nor are they a crutch to rely on. Shields are meant to be a tool to help combat last just that little bit longer.


My suggestions on how to implement everyone's two favorite part of combat: Shields and Energy Weapons

First of all, based on logic, things like steel have a very noticeable melting point, especially against things like Plasma Weapons. Unlike Kinetic weapons, when energy weapons make contact against the hull of your ship it will melt the armor of your ship, weakening it.


Secondly, everyone's true favorite part of Sci-Fi combat, Shielding Technology. Shielding depending on the fiction works by either absorbing the heat of plasma weapons striking your hull, or in case of Kinetic shielding it would disperse the kinetic energy, although realistically the final open seems a bit far fetched


How would I balance it?

How I would balance it is by splitting combat into specialties, What would that mean? Let me explain.

Armor is your primary defense against kinetic weapons, but very weak to energy weapons.

Shields would be very weak to Kinetic weapons, but would absorb the heat from Energy weapons, and would either store the heat or use a "Heat Sink" block to dispel the heat created from the energy weapons impacting the hull of your ship. Energy shields could be disabled by overheating the shield generator.


This system is pretty simple to be honest, but a pretty balanced method to introduce shields and energy weapons into the scene.

Best Answer
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Personally, I disagree for the most part with QualityPen and Semtex.


Why I think "Energy Shields" are realistically possible:

Although I'm obviously not an authority on this, I have done a decent bit of research into the topic of realistic energy shields for my own hard sci-fi universe, and have found a surprising number of realistically possible options. The most basic of which, and I think the only one good for Space Engineers as the others are very far future, is an electromagnetic field containing plasma. Such a field, depending on it's strength, could block various energy levels of light, as well as ionize neutral particle beams to allow for electromagnetic deflection. There are obviously a number of problems with this with current tech, but if there wasn't, we'd be developing them already. This is the case with any sort of futuristic technology. My point is that none of the problems that I'm aware of aren't theoretically solvable.


Realistic Energy Weapons:

While plasma "blobs" are very unlikely to be practical, plasma beams are a definite possibility using Z-pinch technology (running electricity down the length of the beam, creating a magnetic field to hold it together).


As for lasers and particle weapons, any sort of interstellar, or even quick interplanetary travel would require massive energy outputs already, and lasers could utilize this energy with far more efficiency than any kinetic energy, allowing for insane ranges that completely out-compete anything kinetic. This is why there is something called "The Laser Problem" in hard sci-fi. Personally, I think adding lasers would be a horrible idea as you can't dodge them and they have insane range, hence the "Problem", but just saying. Similar thing with particle beams, I see them being horrible for interesting combat.


I'm trying to keep this relatively short so I won't go into more detail on different weapons and shielding possibilities unless anyone asks, but as for how any of this relates to Space Engineers 2...


Modding in vs Out:

I have no idea what you mean by "It's a lot easier to mod something in than mod something out." As a SE1 modder, it's usually easy to remove vanilla blocks or change their functionality, and far harder to add non-vanilla functionality into the game.


How this all relates to SE2:

Personally, I'm kind of on the fence about whether shields should be added or not, as both scenarios are totally possible in hard sci-fi, it really just depends on the technology levels in different areas. So, it then goes to what would be the most fun, and I kind of think that shields are the most likely candidate here, as it adds another layer to the combat gameplay, assuming it's done right.


If they are added, the way I think it should work is similar to how Phoenix described them, but not exactly the same.


Kinetic weapons would be able to go through shields almost as if they weren't there, making them perfect for trying to take out shield projectors. Shield projectors would be some sort of module on the exterior of the ship which creates the electromagnetic field and supplies the plasma for the shields. Although from what research I've done both "regional" and "global" projectors are possible, I think regional would be more fun, as you could try to open up a specific region of the enemy's shielding to allow for plasma beams to get through.


Plasma beams, (again, I think beams, NOT blobs are potentially plausible by using a Z-pinch), would be reduced in strength, deflected, or outright blocked depending on the relative strengths of the shield and plasma weapon. They would be a very close range (under 2km) knife-fighting weapon that, if you can open up holes in the enemy's shields, would be more devastating than any equivalent kinetic weapon.


Optionally, kinetic weapons could be slowed and deflected by a small percentage proportional to the shield strength (I think a strong enough shield would be able to do this), but with a proportionality curve that never results in a complete 100% deflection.


Since a field of plasma around your ship would produce a ton of heat, and to address QualityPen's concern about lack of engineering, some sort of heat mechanic could be implemented into the game (Phoenix also mentioned this) that must be managed and considered in the design of the ship in order to not overheat your ship to the point that you either release the plasma or get cooked alive.


Final Note

While my own research has suggested the above, I don't pretend to be an expert, so if anyone does still dispute anything I've said, particularly relating to the plausibility of energy shields or weapons, I'll be open to it and quite curious as to what you have to say, as futuristic but realistically possible warfare tech is something I am very interested in.

Replies (7)

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Hear, hear!

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Who is "everyone"? There are plenty of people who don't like energy shields, while energy weapons is a very broad term which includes everything from laser weapons (realistic already today) to plasma weapons (not realistic with near-future tech).

Energy shields aren't science fiction, they are just futuristic fantasy. They are bubbles of magic which works however we decide they work, but that's not really my problem. My problem is this - having energy shields in the default game wouldn't really benefit anybody because people who want energy shields can have them as a mod. However, it would degrade the experience for people who don't want energy shields and prefer a harder scifi combat like that in the Expanse. It's a lot easier to mod something in than mod something out.

This is a game which is marketed as being related to engineering. Where's the engineering in magic bubbles? You're trying to take what is a vaguely hard scifi pseudo-engineering game with realism concessions for gameplay due to game engine limitations (jump drive, artificial gravity, industrial efficiency) and turn it into Star Wars or Stargate or Stellaris for everyone, when you could just turn it into that for yourself with a mod once one exists.

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Really the only reason I'm making this statement is due to the fact that a large amount of the community want shields as vanilla, and I believe there's a post about adding shields that's status is "Under Consideration".

I'm making this post to make sure that if shields are added, they would be added with proper balancing in mind.

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I agree with the QualityPen - "shields" as presented in computer games and literary or cinematic fictions are physically impossible, unrealistic. There is not even a hint that such a thing could exist.


Laser and particle weapons could be realised, but at the cost of gigantic energy input - and relatively very small effective range.


Plasma weapons are unrealistic - there is no way to keep a sufficiently dense cloud of charged plasma in free space. It expands and cools very quickly.


On the other hand - kinetic weapons, whether conventional explosive-based or electromagnetic accelerator-based, have an effective range that is virtually unlimited - a projectile in a vacuum does not lose velocity and energy.


Translated with DeepL.com (free version)

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There are flaws and holes in yours and every other person who are negative about (non-Safe Zone) shields in Space Engineers.

1.) Those modders for those mods that you all point to for "If you want shields in SE just use mods" they work and make those mods for FREE, they do not get paid for their work in making and constantly updating them every time SE gets its own update, or when the mod has an unfortunate bug.

2.) Those modders can either "fall off the face of the Earth" by being constantly busy with their lives, lose interest in the game or doing anything with their mod(s), or worse...

3.) Those mods could be tied to other mods created by other people, which would then mean the process of those shield mods would have double or more the steps, depending on the number of mods needed for a shield mod.

4.) The most popular shield system mod is 'WeaponCore' Defense Shields which was originally ran/moderated by DarkStar, with support/help by nukeguard, Whiplash141, CriegwareFare, Derek, Ash_Like_Snow, BDCarrillo, Neimoh, AutoMcDonough, Enenra, and Alysius, these are only the named people that worked on WeaponCore and (WeaponCore) Defense Shields. Since early 2024, ownership/moderation of them changed from DarkStar to Ash_Like_Snow. General 'we' were lucky that others are able to keep these very popular mods going, in other circumstances the WeaponCore mods would have been abandoned and lost functionality as Space Engineers got more updates.

By your logic of 'futuristic fantasy' and 'magic.' Blocks/tech in Space Engineers like Jump Drives, Gravity Generators, - Safe Zone (Shields), Ion Thrusters & Prototech Thrusters, and Holo-Projectors, should not be part the games.

- Space Engineers is in no way shape or form 'hard sci-fi' like The Expanse. That show actually has near real science, physics, and aerodynamics. Space Engineers does not.

- Having shields, being deflectors against energy weapons or general-purpose defense shields against all forms of damage in the game natively would be, is a form of engineering in of itself. If shields and energy weapons require a significant amount of power to generate, great, that puts them in a progression class higher than *Railguns* the most power consumer of a weapon type in Space Engineers, not to mention a weapon that is material expensive.

- Now with the introduction of a technologically advanced faction in Space Engineers 1, The Factorum. They could be the future source of energy weapons and or shields, and you know what they could offer? An engineering challenge to combat them, a technologically advanced faction, almost like Halo's UNSC vs. the Covenant. That being our most effective weapon being the Railgun versus their shields and high-power requirement to generate said shields and or energy weapons.

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Determine the emergency remedy against destructive activities of players as the pinnacle of engineering... But yes, even that could be...

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I feel like this is a tough one. A lot of people don't like shields and wouldn't use them, and there is a lot of people who love them. And I don't know if keen should work on a feature that half the playerbase would turn off (assuming there is the option to turn them off). I personally am a fan of expanse combat, but I wouldn't mind shields getting added to the base game as long as I could turn them off. But I think it should be something that is added after the 'core game' is complete.

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Personally, I disagree for the most part with QualityPen and Semtex.


Why I think "Energy Shields" are realistically possible:

Although I'm obviously not an authority on this, I have done a decent bit of research into the topic of realistic energy shields for my own hard sci-fi universe, and have found a surprising number of realistically possible options. The most basic of which, and I think the only one good for Space Engineers as the others are very far future, is an electromagnetic field containing plasma. Such a field, depending on it's strength, could block various energy levels of light, as well as ionize neutral particle beams to allow for electromagnetic deflection. There are obviously a number of problems with this with current tech, but if there wasn't, we'd be developing them already. This is the case with any sort of futuristic technology. My point is that none of the problems that I'm aware of aren't theoretically solvable.


Realistic Energy Weapons:

While plasma "blobs" are very unlikely to be practical, plasma beams are a definite possibility using Z-pinch technology (running electricity down the length of the beam, creating a magnetic field to hold it together).


As for lasers and particle weapons, any sort of interstellar, or even quick interplanetary travel would require massive energy outputs already, and lasers could utilize this energy with far more efficiency than any kinetic energy, allowing for insane ranges that completely out-compete anything kinetic. This is why there is something called "The Laser Problem" in hard sci-fi. Personally, I think adding lasers would be a horrible idea as you can't dodge them and they have insane range, hence the "Problem", but just saying. Similar thing with particle beams, I see them being horrible for interesting combat.


I'm trying to keep this relatively short so I won't go into more detail on different weapons and shielding possibilities unless anyone asks, but as for how any of this relates to Space Engineers 2...


Modding in vs Out:

I have no idea what you mean by "It's a lot easier to mod something in than mod something out." As a SE1 modder, it's usually easy to remove vanilla blocks or change their functionality, and far harder to add non-vanilla functionality into the game.


How this all relates to SE2:

Personally, I'm kind of on the fence about whether shields should be added or not, as both scenarios are totally possible in hard sci-fi, it really just depends on the technology levels in different areas. So, it then goes to what would be the most fun, and I kind of think that shields are the most likely candidate here, as it adds another layer to the combat gameplay, assuming it's done right.


If they are added, the way I think it should work is similar to how Phoenix described them, but not exactly the same.


Kinetic weapons would be able to go through shields almost as if they weren't there, making them perfect for trying to take out shield projectors. Shield projectors would be some sort of module on the exterior of the ship which creates the electromagnetic field and supplies the plasma for the shields. Although from what research I've done both "regional" and "global" projectors are possible, I think regional would be more fun, as you could try to open up a specific region of the enemy's shielding to allow for plasma beams to get through.


Plasma beams, (again, I think beams, NOT blobs are potentially plausible by using a Z-pinch), would be reduced in strength, deflected, or outright blocked depending on the relative strengths of the shield and plasma weapon. They would be a very close range (under 2km) knife-fighting weapon that, if you can open up holes in the enemy's shields, would be more devastating than any equivalent kinetic weapon.


Optionally, kinetic weapons could be slowed and deflected by a small percentage proportional to the shield strength (I think a strong enough shield would be able to do this), but with a proportionality curve that never results in a complete 100% deflection.


Since a field of plasma around your ship would produce a ton of heat, and to address QualityPen's concern about lack of engineering, some sort of heat mechanic could be implemented into the game (Phoenix also mentioned this) that must be managed and considered in the design of the ship in order to not overheat your ship to the point that you either release the plasma or get cooked alive.


Final Note

While my own research has suggested the above, I don't pretend to be an expert, so if anyone does still dispute anything I've said, particularly relating to the plausibility of energy shields or weapons, I'll be open to it and quite curious as to what you have to say, as futuristic but realistically possible warfare tech is something I am very interested in.

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I researched energy shields years ago and my conclusion was they likely are not feasible. With future tech you could probably find some way to force plasma into a shape roughly resembling a bubble, but ultimately it would be a gimmick, not anything useful without galactic-level handwaving, so much so that it might as well be magic. It's very easy to cling onto phenomena and use it to rationalize something that you want to be real. I did that once with shields and FTL - but at the end of the day, it's the flawed rationalization of a desire, not a conclusion based on the evidence.

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I actually do want lasers in Space Engineers 2. But this is because lasers have multiple real world physics limitations that make them a niche weapon. The Laser Problem is something people believe in because they don't understand the limitation of lasers. Multiple governments worldwide have been working on laser weapons for decades and here's what they concluded:

1. Lasers become unfocused with distance. In real life a 50 kW laser would be expected to have an effective range of 1 mile against very light targets like drones or people before becoming too unfocused to be effective.

2. Lasers are scattered by humidity or particulates (dust). That further limits their range in an atmosphere. During cloudy weather or other weather events like sandstorms, a laser would be virtually useless except at very short range.

3. Lasers have high power requirements. For a laser to do damage comparable even just to something like an autocannon, it would need to be in the multi-MW range. That's already noticeable in Space Engineers - it would be even more noticeable if reactors and batteries had realistic power outputs (far lower than they are in-game).

4. Lasers are inefficient and retain most of the energy that is put into them. In essence, they heat up their own vessel more than the target vessel. This means lasers' thermal energy would have to be radiated away. In atmosphere, the air can absorb that heat quickly but in space the ship has to emit it as infrared radiation, a very very slow process. I'm all for adding thermal regulation to Space Engineers, I've even already filed it as feedback.

In the end, what that means is that anti-capital ship lasers are hard to make. They eat up a ton of energy, dump a ton of heat, and are not effective to the distances you would expect.

There's a game / simulation of realistic space combat called Children of a Dead Earth. I've played it and was never particularly fond of lasers. They were the best weapon for point defense against unarmored threats but mediocre at best as heavy weapons or as point defense against armored threats, and came with many downsides - figuring out how to stick enough reactors and radiators on a ship to make a laser useable was always "fun." I generally stuck to missiles and kinetic point defense. On the few rare unique missions where that loadout didn't make sense I used coilguns.

Lasers with realistic balancing would be great at taking out 25cm grids, players trying to cheese by flying in with just their space suits, and those slow unguided rockets from the first game. So, I want them in.

By the way, plasma weapons are going to run into the same issue as lasers in terms of heat. Most energy you dump into heating up a beam of plasma is going to stay in the gun. Setting aside artificial gameplay / game engine limitations of Space Engineers, if a weapon in space combat is for "knife range," why would anybody bother with it? 2 km is nothing in space, where object can be moving 8 km/s or even faster relative to one another, and combat is probably taking place at 50km to 500,000 km. I doubt we'll ever see plasma weapons like that in the real world. Even if they are possible, that's not the same as being practical.

Shields would compound the heat dissipation issue with plasma and lasers. The last thing you need is a ball of plasma around your ship radiating you with heat. And if there's a ball of plasma around your ship, that implies it's being heated by your ship which, again, would be an inefficient process which dumps thermal energy into the ship.

To put that into perspective, radiating away the heat of a plasma field and laser and plasma weaponry is like standing on a little steel platform surrounded by a pond of molten iron which you made by taking a giant blowtorch to the platform you're standing on, firing a flamethrower, and trying to stay cool amidst all that by panting.

If you're curious about real engineering limitations and can do so, I encourage you to get Physics Spreadsheet Simulator Children of a Dead Earth. You'll understand quickly what a nightmare it would be to be sticking heat-intensive weaponry and shielding onto a ship. It's annoying enough getting rid of the crew's body heat and a little reactor.

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When I say it's easier to mod something in than out, I am not talking about adding or removing the individual block or functionality. Yes, you're right, it's easier to disable something than create something new.

I'm speaking more broadly, about how removing or adding something changes things throughout the game.

As an example, let's say that Keen adds in shields and energy weapons and a player who wants something more realistic wants to mod them out. Well, Space Engineers contains many vanilla ship blueprints which are spawned into the game. If they were designed with shields in mind, their armor scheme and layout may have been using shields as a crutch and be too weak without them. What of the shield generator? Is that now missing, or just dead weight? What if shields keep out water, as suggested in that other feedback thread - now any underwater station with a shield is going to be flooded the moment it spawns in. In the case of plasma weapons, would those even be conveyored or just run purely on energy (like ion thrusters)? If they run purely on energy, then removing plasma weapons would severely weaken a ship, but replacing them automatically with kinetic weapons in a blueprint wouldn't be an option. Is someone going to go through all the blueprints in the game and patch them to be compatible with a shields/plasma disabled mod or gameplay mode? I doubt it.

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I don't really have time to write much more, but I'll respond to the following two points.

By your logic of 'futuristic fantasy' and 'magic.' Blocks/tech in Space Engineers like Jump Drives, Gravity Generators, - Safe Zone (Shields), Ion Thrusters & Prototech Thrusters, and Holo-Projectors, should not be part the games.

I thought I was pretty clear that I don't want fantasy tech like Jump Drives, Gravity Generators, or Safe Zone (shields)... Or wouldn't, if they weren't essential to compensate for shortcomings in the gameplay loop or game engine.

Jump Drives are a crutch for low top speed. Gravity Generators are a crutch for not having a proper zero-G movement system where we could push off walls and the like; magboots are not very good, just try walking on ladders with them. Safe Zones are important to prevent griefing on servers and were originally proposed as a static block which would keep your base safe while you're online; I'm not fond of them being used by Keen as protection for Factorum outposts or players abusing them for warfare.

I'd prefer that we didn't need those things but taking them out would have seriously detrimental effects on the gameplay. I've travelled at 100 m/s between planets. I don't want to spend hours doing it again. The game has never needed shields; they are just a preference some players have. If we want to go into preferences, I have my own with radar, guided missiles, air defense, infrared cameras, flares, electronic counter measures, damage threshold...

Ion thrusters are only unrealistic in that they are nigh-impossibly powerful for ion thrusters and don't use fuel. Both of which are things I am not a fan of - but what am I going to do, convince Keen to remove the oldest and most iconic thruster? Fine, if I could have my preference, ion would be replaced with a resistojet or arcjet or, better yet, a nuclear thermal rocket.

I modded Prototech thrusters in my game to be representative of Lithium Salt Water Rockets, a hybrid fission-fusion reaction rocket that produces lots of thrust, little nuclear fallout, and is extremely fuel efficient. It's an improved offshoot of the Nuclear Salt Water Rocket and is a design which is futuristic but likely realistic tech.

- Space Engineers is in no way shape or form 'hard sci-fi' like The Expanse. That show actually has near real science, physics, and aerodynamics. Space Engineers does not.

I'm not sure what to say to this, exactly. The Expanse is not fully hard sci-fi, unless we forget all the magical alien stuff and nigh-impossibly-efficient torch drives. But fine, I'll bite.

Space Engineers could have better physics and it could have aerodynamics. I'm all for it.

Aside from the blocks I discussed above, which can't easily be done away with, it generally uses realistic technology. Antennae and laser antennae. Rockets. Shells. Autocannons. Rifles. Pistols. Wheels. Cameras. The game is obviously not a perfect simulation and while there's room for improvement in that regard, the general theme and aesthetic of the game is a grounded industrial look. Over the last week, I've been designing a metallurgy plant based on the Soviet-era Magnitogorsk Iron and Steel Works, and while not a 1:1, with the industrial DLC buildset I'm able to build something that looks like it could exist in that factory. It's not like Space Engineers has anti-gravity pads or stargates or "beam me up, Scotty," or guided plasma torpedoes, or laser drills, or blasters, or energy swords, or so on. Mostly, outside of the aforementioned necessary and limited exceptions, Space Engineers is closer to hard scifi than futuristic fantasy.

I spent some time working on a SE1 realism mod which made Space Engineers use real physics as much as possible (ie: realistic reactor power output, realistic hydrogen storage values, etc). In general, it is possible to make Space Engineers have combat that's not too far off from the Expanse or, for something even more realistic, Children of a Dead Earth. The mod is shelved for now because I just don't have time to finish and maintain it and will probably shift my focus to SE2 anyways. But shields are a further step back as far as my quest for realism in this game goes and I don't see why other than that some players like shields and don't want to bother with mods.

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Sorry I took so long to respond, I've had a lot to do and that is a lot to go through lol.

Considering we've both done research and come to different conclusions, I think the only way to resolve this is to make sure we both have the same information. Here is my source of information in regards to The Laser Problem: http://toughsf.blogspot.com/2016/03/the-laser-problem-one-of-most-important.html It does mostly refer to much higher tech levels than CoaDE (which I have played btw, really neat game), which would be more relevant for SE2 I think considering that SE2 is supposed to be 10k years in the future.

What is your source for the ineffectiveness of plasma shielding? I'll admit my only research into that has been meta analysis in video form (aka YT videos referencing studies rather than reading those studies myself lol). There is one study though that I keep hear coming up, where apparently university students found that plasma shielding could be realistically made and be effective at blocking certain wavelengths of light using modern technology, let alone tech 10k years in the future. If you've done more research on that I'll probably just say "okay, you probably know more about this than me", but I do think that there is very little we can say about how technology will be 10k years in the future, so unless there is a competing technology that would be guaranteed to remain more effective indefinitely due to just being straight up superior, I'm not sure if we can say for sure that shields are forever implausible. Since it sounds like heat is the only issue, some breakthrough in radiator technology could make them more practical than just trying to stop a laser or plasma beam with your armour. But again, if you've done way more research into this than me... well, lemme know why that's not possible lol.

For plasma beams, the "2km" range I was specifically referring to Space Engineers, not real life. 2km irl would obviously be useless I know lol.

I get what you mean now about modding in vs out though, but I'm not sure I see that as as much of a problem as I've always just turned off npcs as they're so lame, so the only builds are generally by players. Then again, if SE2 really does go way more into npcs... yeah we would need someone to make a mod that fixes that, fair enough.

Also I'm not sure if you were saying that for me "it's the flawed rationalization of a desire, not a conclusion based on the evidence," but if so that's just not true whatsoever lol, I'm the type to completely change the design of every ship I build if I realize something in it isn't actually practical, not cling to it because it "looks cool" or anything like that. Then again, it could very well be that my information sources on shields are clinging to shields because they want them to be real, in which case that issue could be indirectly affecting me.

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You link to an interesting article... Thanks.

But one thing is a little bit disturbing. The dry weight of the ship is supposed to be 100 tons. And the propulsion power is 100GW.

The current typical nuclear power plant unit has a electric output of 1GW. The thermal output is obviously three times bigger...

So into the 100ton weight we need to cram 100 current nuclear reactors (each weighing ~300 tons), ship structure, payload and crew. Turbines and cooling system do not count...

Doesn't that seem a bit excessive to you?

Translated with DeepL.com (free version)

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The article seems to explain it pretty well. "5 GW output implies some sort of efficient fusion energy, if it can be packaged alongside a useful payload within 100 tons" and "Trying to get shorter and shorter travel times increases your power requirements exponentially, but it is not the focus of this post." This isn't with current technology, this is for what you'd have to have in order to have decent travel times in a science fiction universe. It's just an example as well, I don't think the mass is the main focus, but rather the power requirements to get lower travel times.

Edit: oh and also if it wasn't apparent, also read the posts II and III for the Laser Problem if you want to read more into it, the first article is mainly explaining why such high power outputs would be available to any sci-fi ship outside of near-future tech, assuming decent travel times.

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I've played on servers for months with DarkStar's shields and various variations there of made by folks trying to 'balance it' in other ways.. I can't say i've ever seen them do anything more than make fights take far too long and encourage the use of spamming a bunch of blocks to maximize the shield potential of their vessel.


I'm sure theres plenty other ways we could implement or test various shield systems but i don't think space engineers wants to associate itself with force fields, then again they did implement 'safe zones'.. Idk, I for one tend to avoid shield mods whenever I can.

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I've created content for games for over 20 years now, with some of my most recent stuff being for SE (no i'm not a keen dev). Some of those games include Star Trek Armada 2 and other games that involve shields and I can safely say ALOT of people are severely overthinking the concept of shields far as a potential SE game mechanic goes. There is an extremely simple way to balance shields without a bunch of extra under the hood mechanics to overly complicate it.


First bit of balancing, make them a prototech block (SE1) or the equivalent of one (SE2). This makes them much harder to come by and incentivizes going out into the world.

Second, you balance around singular blocks. In other words, how much damage from each weapon type do you want the shield to be able to take before it drops? EX: how many shots from a singular gatling should it take before the shield fails (assuming no regen)? We talking 100 shots, 1000 shots, 10,000 shot, or we talking say 50 or less? Now you've defined the first of 3 variables which is total health X. The second variable to define is regen rate Y. In Star Trek Online as one example you naturally regenerate a specific amount of shields every 6 seconds in addition to dedicated shield heals you may have. For an SE shield once you've defined the total health X, you say "I want it to regen at a rate of Y per second" just to keep it simple. Your last value is defining power draw Z to keep the shields active and for them to regenerate. In other words, you define total health X, regen Y, and power draw Z. There you have your baseline default values for a potential vanilla shield.

If the shield fails you can have one of two things happen, you can have it not come back up until the shields have fully recharged, or you can have it try to regenerate only to be knocked back down again. mechanically either is valid and doesn't change the overall function.


In terms of simplicity, Cython's shields are the best example you're going to get. They're easy to install, easy to run, and you can add "upgrades" to increase the capacity of the shields and/or recharge rate of the shields to your liking. Power draw increases accordingly. There's no need to make it anymore complicated than it needs to be. Start with something simple like Cython's shields. From there they can give folks sliders to increase/decrease the effectiveness of the regen rate, power draw, and total health granted for the shield. Or a toggle to just turn them off. If keen wants they could have a couple servers with shields on and a few with shields off if/when they get there in SE2, or should they implement in SE1 (seriously do both please). They already turn lightning damage and meteors off on official servers but still leave it there for everyone else who wants it. No reason they can't do the same with shields. For everyone else you can mod them to be weaker/stronger based on your preferences if you want or turn them off. This way you're only as effected by shields as you choose to be at that juncture.


As for me I've wanted to see shields for ages and it's a little ridiculous to me at this point we have to write these large script files or depend on 3rd party scripts just to make them work. I liken shields as similar to food systems or ammo racking mechanics. In most games I'm not fond of food systems as they're often just "eat/drink this or die" and it's all negatives if you don't interact with the system but no positives or benefits to interacting with it. Such as temporary buffs like you see in minecraft s one example. I also HATE ammo racking with a burning passion and think it's one of the most unfun/unskilled ways to win/lose a fight in every game that has it. So for me I would likely turn off ammo racking in SE2 if it has it, and already have disabled ammo racking in SE1. For a food system if it's purely "eat/drink or die" then I would likely turn it off or try to mod in a buff of some kind. Folks that like food systems and ammo racking can still use it, and because I can disable or mod it I do. Both sides win.


Shields hurt no one just by existing as you either have them or you don't. You'll either use them or you won't. Unless folks intend to play on a server that uses them, which why would you if you don't like them, you don't have to be effected by them unless you choose to be. If this were something like a Jump Inhibitor that can shut off jump drives and actually CAN harm someone just by existing, then this would be a different argument. The game is 10k years in the future, and although their tech may not have advanced from being in cryo sleep. precedent is set to have them "discover" the tech from someone else that was already there before.


In other words, define the default values of the shields, let players adjust them or turn them off from there. Folks are not harmed by the ability of others to use a shield. Some people prefer their flavor of SE to be without shields, I prefer mine with. Both playstyles are valid. I shouldn't have to rely on a mod for a block that harms no one purely by existing when the other side just has to turn them off. For that matter they can stick a 4th slider on the shields that says you can't use more than X shield generators per grid. This solves the shield stacking issue.


Lastly it boggles my mind how so many claim (not saying anyone specific here but speaking generally) they want more engineering challenges, yet when the potential to have to deal with a shield generator enters the picture and them having to adjust their tactics, people whine about it. If the only difference between you fighting someone the first time vs the second is them having a shield, and you lose purely because they have that shield, it means your build and/or tactics aren't good enough and you need to change. Far too many blame the shield for their not being on the level they think they are. Heck leave the shields off on official servers for all I care, but give me my shields already. Keep it simple like Cython's and lets get rolling.

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I totally agree with you.

I wouldn't like to ruin the game experience of others only because I like shields and I love the concept to create a colony ship, that is poorly armored and weaponed but it still has the possibility to escape an encounter flying away without exploding or the wedding of nearly rebuild it from scratch.


So please, what I am saying is, made them the most inefficient thing in SE, but introduce them.


Personally in the little time I have to play, I like having a game that is highly Sci-fi, for realistic things I have the real world.

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I agree with what you mentioned, especially your last statement about 'engineering challenges' when shields are in discussion.

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I think the idea of having them a setting that can be turned on and off is an excellent idea considering how incredibly controversial they are. Besides that, though, as I responded to your other post:


I absolutely disagree with such a simple implementation. If shields block all damage, they become a boring addition to combat, a blanket health pool with no interesting mechanics behind it. If shields are to improve the combat, rather than worsen it, they need to add some mechanics to the combat, such as allowing kinetic weapons mostly through and plasma beams blocked, as I suggested. At the very, absolute least, there needs to be something like shield redirection to add to combat. A blanket health pool would just be a boring thing to have to get past before you get to the interesting combat utilizing SE's incredible creation and destruction mechanics, at least in my opinion.

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@Frederico: I've said from the start if they would give us a basic vanilla block to work with that gives us health X, regen Y and power draw Z I can take care of the rest with mods if need be. Long as I don't have to write a bunch of scripts I'm good.

@Star_Kindler: I disagree with a blanket pool being boring as you wouldn't have well over 500k subs between Cython's and Defense Shields alone. In game development be it the small time mod level or AAA studio level, sometimes less is actually more. You don't want to overthink things which alot of people do with shields. We get them to give us a baseline vanilla block that works, then if you want to add a bleedthrough for certain weapon types, we can do that then with mods if we have to, but first lets get our foot in the door. Star Trek Online is another game that has a bleedthrough on shields so they don't completely stop everything. Stopping a shield from blocking all damage is as easy as putting them on a damage multiplier. As an example if you want to have it block 50% of income damage you tell it to multiply damage by 0.5 and there you go.

Getting through a shield that's a blanket health pool is no different than someone having a kevlar vest AND a riot shield in ground combat. The riot shield blocks bullets until it breaks, then the kevlar vest is the next line. In this instance the energy shields are the riot shield and the kevlar vest is the ship's armor.

Also I'm going to ask you to define "shield redirection" because what you call redirection and what I think of with redirection may be 2 different things.

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The defense shields mod you mentioned isn't even a blanket health pool. It has bleedthrough, heat and shield redirection mechanics to make it more interesting. If that kind of thing were to be implemented, it could be fun, but something like the energy shield mod has never been fun, at least for me personally. I've not heard of Cython's before so I can't speak on it.

By "shield redirection", I mean redirecting the strength of your shields to different sectors of your ship. For example, redirecting shield power to the front.

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@Star_Kindler: If it has a bleedthrough then it's on a damage multiplier like I mentioned before which is easy to do even with a generic shield. All keen would have to do is put it on a damage multiplier and can start out with the default at complete immunity, or 10% bleedthrough like Star Trek Online. If it wasn't such a pain in the aft shuttle bay to write the scripts that govern shields, I would borrow heavily from the a Star Trek type system to make my own set of shields and have the different sectors. However since I despise scripting more than I have to, I would rather it be kept simple and us get in the door. We don't need a heat mechanic at all, especially if you have shield sectors. That alone is enough to manage with shields. Less is often more with game development.

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I mean yeah if they add sectors and bleedthrough for certain weapons that sounds pretty fun. But I stand by that a blanket health pool without those mechanics would be boring.

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One such logical problem: how do you want to use weapons and shields at the same time? Your own weapons will have to pierce your shield.

Do you stick another crutch on the crutch? Will you declare that the shield has friend-foe recognition? Declare that the shield shuts down at the moment of firing?

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I do believe we are talking about different types of shields, we're not talking about the type of shield that creates a impenetrable bubble around your ship. I'm talking more like energy shields, which work by creating a type of "magnetic field" on the surface of your ship that works by spreading out the impact of the blast on the hull of your ship to minimize damages.

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If you go with my suggestion, you'd have to turn off your shield to fire effective plasma beam weaponry, and kinetic weapons would be slightly less effective while your shield is active. Alternatively, more advanced shields could potentially create holes in the shielding where weapons are actively firing out, although I imagine this would be quite difficult, so I think it depends on which would end up being more fun. Or, perhaps both shields could be implemented, with different material and tech costs.

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If it is just a magnetic field as Phoenix suggests, if you had it repel rather than do anything else, if that's possible, it would actually benefit your weapons as it would add to their velocity, assuming their firing angle accounted for that.

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The magnetic field is always bipolar - magnetic monopoles do not exist (this follows from Maxwell's equations). The same is true for the electric field - neutral particles do not react to it, consensually charged ones are repelled, non-consensually charged ones are attracted... This implies, among other things, that the force field dissipates spontaneously and must be constantly replenished. The second effect is that the "source" of the force field is charged with an opposite charge.


The interesting question is: what happens when the fields of two ships come into contact?

The physically correct answer is - there is a reconnection of magnetic fields or a discharge of electric fields and the ships get wrapped in a common field, while in the space between the ships the field disappears... The reconnection of magnetic fields is incidentally the process that is the energy source for solar flares.


If the defensive force field is to deflect incoming projectiles from their trajectory, it will also deflect fired projectiles - the accuracy of the firing drops to zero, because your projectile is already deflected at the beginning of the trajectory...


Safe zone... The primary purpose is to prevent low energy density processes - cutting, welding... bullet initiation... In the original designation, it only protected stationary base-type objects located on the surface of planets.


Translated with DeepL.com (free version)

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It's a game dude, you don't need to overthink it so much. In Star Trek as one example, if you match the frequency of the weapons to that of the shields, the weapons will go through. You can assume the same is true in this instance. Or just say it's a video game and call it good. It doesn't need to be 100% realistic in order to work.

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@captainblade I really don't think it's overthinking it. Usually, the more complex a mechanic is, the more fun it is, assuming it's done well and not just complex for the sake of being complex. Simple mechanics aren't usually fun unless combined with a lot of other simple mechanics in a creative way.

For any hard sci-fi fans like myself, it does need to be realistic to be fun and interesting.

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We play at being engineers, technically minded people. So the game should respect at least the elementary basics of the real universe. However much it bends or stretches them for the sake of gameplay, it should neither deny nor negate them.


The game should be much stricter in its adherence to the laws of physics and rules than literary or cinematic science fiction.

Simply because literary or cinematic stories are complete and closed, the "unintended consequences" of ill-considered rules of warped physics don't spoil the picture of the world because they don't occur in the tolded story.

The game is different. Whole herds of players will look for loopholes that would give them an advantage in the game. And there will rise another stupid and warped universe...

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@Star_Kindler: No, no it's not. What you're asking for is complex for the sake of complex. Try coding that stuff for awhile then tell me if you still think it's fun. The problem with ultra complex stuff is there's more opportunity to break and more calculations that need to be done. Ultra complex everything turns off more people from your content than it engages. I'm speaking from experience on that.


@Semtex: if you're wanting fully realistic you're barking up the wrong tree. Because alot of what I'm seeing people try to add here would drop sim speed dramatically for very little return. Now if you want to say lore wise that a shield operates by (insert long physics and other technical arguments here) then cool. But gameplay wise the more optimized something is in actuality the better. Lore is one thing, but if you want a game to perform well and people to play it, the thing also needs to run as well.

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@captainbladej52 What I'm suggesting is no where near "ultra complex", it's the kind of thing already done with the Defense Shields mod for SE1, which is by far the most popular shield mod in that game. I think that proves that what I suggest isn't going to turn everyone off lol if it's very similar to the most popular shield implementation in SE1...

It's not complex for the sake of complex, it's complex for the sake of not being so simple it's boring. I've seen the type of ultra basic shielding you suggest, and it's just not fun. Not sure what more there is to say on this...

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I think that somewhere there's a theory on anti-gravity shields.

If they are strong enough you will be able to stop either energy and bullets.

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Good. I wanted to comment on the subject of shield type nonsense and the like.

Understandably - many will disagree with me. It's soo tempting candy...


Now I'll write something on the subject of how to get out of this quagmire.

The technical speed limit for ships is supposed to be 300 m/s. It's obviously a barrier to the capabilities of the game engine. It doesn't matter if it ends up being 200 or 2000 m/s - it's just that such a barrier exists.

Realistically, current space rockets fly at 12-15km/s. Let technical advances make it possible to increase their speed to 30 or 100km/s. Probably not more, because the energy...

Realistic current weapons fire projectiles at about 1500 m/s (APFSDS). The limit of chemically powered projectiles is around 2000 m/s, no more. The fastest anti-aircraft and anti-missile missiles reach speeds of around 2500m/s. ABM missiles are faster, but also dimensionally larger (up to tens of tons). From electromagnetic weapons designers promise speeds of 5 to 10 km/s... Much more is impossible to achieve due to barrel length and energy...


What do we see? Space rockets or future spaceships are faster than projectiles from cannon. And it will always be so, because spacecraft can accelerate for long periods of time, seconds, minutes and hours... whereas a projectile has only a finite (and not great) barrel length of a gun.


How to solve it? How to solve it so that the nonsense disappears?

In my opinion, simply.

Reduce the speed of projectiles in the game. Significantly.

Make a rule that the maximum velocity of a projectile fired from a cannon must be no more than, say, 150 m/s (or else - half to a third of the maximum speed of the grid), and the velocity of a guided missile 150-200 m/s (half to two thirds of the maximum speed of the grid).

Make a rule that the maximum speed of the ship in the atmosphere is 100-150m/s (and 50, 75 or 100m/s is already the speed of sound).

Such a reduction should make sense on planets too - the planets in the game are scaled down considerably, so reducing the atmospheric flight speed gives the planets more realistic sizes and flight times. And it also gains the sense of soaring high above the atmosphere and flying to your destination "through space" (as balistic missile).


Of course, this will have its consequences. Fighting fast-moving ships will be much more difficult. So much so that ships flying at top speed won't be able to fight each other. It will be much harder to hit targets, because one will have to take into account fire overtaking (firing aimed far ahead of the target), the long flight time of the projectile to the target, and other circumstances.


It would probably also require some interventions in the game engine calculations - for example, adding the velocity of the firing ship and the fired projectile, calculating the impact energy of the projectile from the sum of the velocities of the projectile and the target, terminating the existence of the projectile according to time rather than distance or trajectory length (and this projectile existence time should be relatively long, at least 10-15 seconds for small projectiles and 30-60 seconds for "main caliber" projectiles).

Translated with DeepL.com (free version)

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I'm sorry, I don't see how this has anything to do with this suggestion, which is about shields and energy weapons?

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If shields are added there needs to be some kind of counter. A special kind of weapon that is adept at killing shields but that otherwise does minimal damage to regular blocks would be one solution. It should come in a variety of formats ie mounted weapons, warheads etc and have it own drawbacks such as either being expensive, very large to mount, uses a lot of energy etc.

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That's literally what this suggestion is about.

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