Need Invert Mouse Y-Axis in Space Engineers 2

Adam Miller shared this bug 15 days ago
In Progress

There is no options to change Mouse Y-Axis. This makes the game unplayable for me. Please Fix ASAP.

Best Answer
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@Chris Waller Agreed. I find it fundamentally impossible to believe literally nobody at Keen plays with an inverted mouse. I also want to know how something like being able to actually control the character is not considered at the very least "hotfix" important.

@Keen Many of us could not care less if the game crashes because we can't play it without an inverted mouse to begin with.

Replies (15)

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13

Game is completely unplayable without Invert-Mouse-Y

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14

Having played games for at least 35 years with an inverted mouse, I just can't play without this option. I would be happy if there was a config file I could edit until the UI is ready. Until this I genuinely can't play without getting frustrated and don't want this to be my impression of the game. Thank you

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5

waaaa... this make feel old. as soon as read 35 years.. star counting. and.. no no no.. dont want to count.


Please Keen dont let old people out.

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14

also a long-time gamer in the inverted control model. Probably my biggest "make or break" for enjoying a new title.

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7

I will not re-buy this game until I can invert my mouse. Period.

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8

Surely its coming. Us inverted nerds are many. They won't leave us hanging for long. Right Keen?

Keeeeeeen 2c500402f7b67dbf31a2f3bf516418f6

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9

This is required; how did it get overlooked as an alpha feature?

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9

That's what I'm asking. I understand, that this is an early alpha, and things are going to be missing. That being said I have 2 questions. 1. is mouse invert considered part of minimal viable product? 2. Are you telling me not ONE developer at Keen uses invert mouse?

I started gaming when not only was this the default, it was the only option if I remember properly. Yes, get off my lawn. lol

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7

It should be a relatively easy fix, we need it ASAP Keen.


Even just allowing game config file to be editable and put out a guide on how to invert would be awesome


I love Space Engineers and want to love SE2 but its literally unplayable for me

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4

Got a reply from them from a ticket I submitted about it. Not sure why they won't just say this here though. I emphasized the important bit.


"We completely understand how important having proper control over your character is, and we apologize for the inconvenience. While the option to invert the mouse Y-axis is not currently available in Space Engineers 2, we are actively working on refining and improving the controls. This feature is definitely something we are planning to add in the future."


I guess now we wait... and wait... I'm still not going to re-buy until I see it though.

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9

I'm not sure that "planning to add in the future" is an acceptable response. I know this is early access, I know a lot of features aren't working. But this is so fundamental to me and many others that surely it should be part of the minimal viable release.


Such a shame as I want to support Keen and have all of SE1 dlc for that reason, but I simply can't play SE2.

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7

I could not agree more! This is core functionality and not to be considered a "feature" of any kind. That is the part that really really gets to me almost like a face slap.

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7

'In the future' isn't good enough - this should have been a basic feature from the start,

I suggest people just refund this game as 'not fit for purpose' for now.

And for anyone suggesting live with it - no I am not going to screw up my reactions in EVERY other game just because Keen are too lazy/thoughtless.

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6

I tried to force myself to play even though there was no inverted mouse y-axis, ye know, to admire the graphics. But I ended up admiring only the floor and the ceiling! I really liked the game otherwise, but it's exhausting for me to try to play with non-inverted y-axis... 😅 please, add this option asap, I really want to try and build things and pilot and such.

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how does having an inverted axis change your ability to limit your movements?? genuine question cause it sounds like your talking about sensitivity...

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@Tristan Sullivan If you are used to an inverted y-axis then when you try to move around with a non-inverted y-axis you basically just wind up staring at the floor or the ceiling due to moving the mouse in the wrong direction every time. It is not something you can just get used to doing differently. Imagine trying to drive a car but the steering wheel is reversed so it does the opposite of what you expect.

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Oh it doesn't change my ability to limit my movements, it makes my movements be the opposite movements. An easy way to experience this if you're used to playing with the non-inverted y-axis in a Fps shooter of your choice, try and enable that option and then try to play with the option enabled. Or if you're used to inverted y-axis, go there and disable that option and try to play. If having the option enabled or not to you does not make a difference in how you play, you're either not good at playing with mouselook, or you're not only good but are actually blessed, because that's as rare as being ambidextrous.

Most of us are not "y-axis ambidextrous", so we depend in the games giving the players the option to invert or not the y-axis. I noticed that in very old games the inverted y-axis was the default option and now it is not, so it could be a generational thing too. This is why the option is there in all games that have mouselook, if you look for it. It's not some weird phenomenon that happens to some people, but rather, it would be weird if the option being on or off did not matter to someone.


Anyway, if you don't want to do the experiment, our of laziness or something, I can try and explain how it's not related to sensitivity. But actually it's due to compounding instability. Our own muscle is automated to push or pull the mouse depending on if you want to look up or down. We don't think that. I hope you don't, otherwise you're dead in Fpses before you even begin to aim at someone. As someone that has learned to play mouselook games with inverted y-axis, if I want to look up and the camera is moving down, I'm going to pull the mouse to me faster in order to make the camera move up. If that doesn't work, and the camera goes even more down, I'm going automatically to pull the mouse even more to me in order to look up. This is automatic, I don't choose this. By the time I have had time to think "oh wait the mouselook is not working as I expect" I'm already looking at the floor because by trying to look up I looked further down. And with the ceiling is the same. We are automated persons. This is what makes people playing with this option reverted when compared to their "mental automation" makes them look between floor and ceiling: Because the less we want to look at either, the more we do. It's the same for ppl that prefer non-inverted y-axis and for those who prefer inverted y-axis.


If this wasn't clear enough or you still think it's due to mouse sensitivity or something, try asking about this to some AI because it will explain this all a lot better than I ever will. But I kinda was feeling like trying to explain something to someone so heh, i made an effort. Hopefully it was clear enough. Sorry if it wasn't :x

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For some of us it is more than just "I'm looking in the wrong direction." It actually makes me nauseous in the same way being a passenger in a car with a crazy driver feels. My brain is expecting movement in 1 direction and moving in the other direction does not compute.

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While the option to invert the mouse Y-axis is not currently available in Space Engineers 2, we are actively working on refining and improving the controls. This feature is definitely something we are planning to add in the future.

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7

This needs fixing NOW not sometime "in the future"! The missing control abilities should have been clearly spelt out in the game descriptions prior to sale.

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6

Hi! Do you think this is something that could be done temporarily with a mod or plugin or something that we can use as a workaround so that we can start trying out the game asap? I know that there's a lot of work to do in regards to input customization and it's a complex topic, but when it comes to making a cheap workaround to invert y-axis, you'd make a lot of ppl happy with a lousy checkbox in a random settings screen without waiting for the whole control settings stuff to be implemented. Heck, I'd be more than happy if I had to add some game launch argument in the steam properties like "spacengineers.exe -invertedmouse" xD

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Thank you for the response. I'm keen to play the game, hence purchasing it in early access, and have supported all the DLC for SE1. I am interested to know however what "in the future" means.

As it stands, and in the current state, the game is unplayable for me. I think I managed 14 minutes so far spread over a couple of attempts before I just gave up, not wanting to sully my impression of the game. However if 'in the future' is not a matter of days, or worst case a week or two, then I feel I need to try and refund the game and wait until I can play. This is very disheartening as it feels like mouse invert isn't even a feature, it's like not implementing a keyboard interface, or not implementing mouse-buttons. Sure I could find a way to work-around it, but I shouldn't have to. If this wasn't identified as a feature then although so minor in the scheme of the game, I'm worried it may be an indication of the direction of development, that perhaps isn't for me.

And the only reason I'm still here typing is that I love Space Engineers! I really want to play the game, I preloaded it, installed it as soon as I could, and just feel deflated :(.

I hope this is taken in the way that it is intended, and look forward to reading in the change-log that mouse-invert is included in a not too distant update.

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4

Other people have replied with the same thing I am about to.


As someone used to playing inverted, I can not play without it.


We aren't asking for full implementation yet, just a checkbox for inversion or even just a guide on how to customize it in the config files. We understand that this is an alpha, but this feature is a very basic thing that is preventing at least 44 people as of now from enjoying the game. 44 people who bought the early access because they wanted to support the development. The lack of a stop-gap measure to address this combined with a response of "will be addressed in the future" with no definite timeline feels terrible. It could be months before us inverted folk can even play the game

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I have just refunded it on Steam, but purchasing it is definitely something I am planning to do in the future.

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@David Barr LOL same here! If they want to play the whole "maybe we'll add it in the future if we feel like it and there's no ice cream and we're bored" game (sorry but that is how it feels) then we can too! :D They won't get another penny from me on SE1 or 2 until I can invert the mouse.

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I would like to know when "in the future" is, because it's a hotfix level game breaking issue to me and a good chunk of us and it doesn't seem to be taken very seriously.

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7

I read the hotfix: "Keyboard and mouse controls are not customizable yet, but they will be!"

Just to be clear, i don't think the issue is well understood here. We are not asking to customise the whole UI and key binding here.

We just just need a check box that say " Invert Y Axis" in the menu for now. We know the rest will be developed latter. I'm not worried about that.

I can't enjoy the game right now as it is and try to re-wire my brain.

Part of the fun of the early acces is to witness the developement steps every day / every week and test new stuff and compare and the before and after. Can't do that... I tried ...

I can't believe there is no staff on the Keen team that play games inverted camera.

it's like telling a left-handed person to write/draw with is right hand.... and try to test this cool new pencil while you're at it.


I repeat just to be sure the message I try to convey is clear: We just just need a check box that say " Invert Y Axis" in the menu for now.


The game look great, been a SE1 player don't know for how long, before planets, 3000 hours +

Hope I can enjoy SE2 soon, keep on with the good work,

Thanks

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8

@Tristan Sullivan if you are a regular gamer with subconscious reactions developed over many years/decades, then when you move the mouse, you instinctively correct it. When that corrective movement is in the opposite direction, then instead of correcting it you make it worse. A classic case of positive feedback in a control system.

What is worse, is if we tried to brute force our way through it and live with it, then slowly our brains get into a situation of not really knowing which way to instinctively correct which then screws up our reactions in all games. For those who are just bad at all mouse control games then I get it if this makes no sense, but for those who are quick reacting and precise and have people depending on that precision - it is utterly game breaking and harmful to even attempt to play it. It can induce feeling of nausea as well in some people because what you do doesn't correlate with what you see.

So for those used to inverted Y - this is utterly game breaking. Arguably worse then if the game just crashed on start. Its a show stopper. Major game breaking deficiency. Worse is that Keen evidently neither understand nor care much about this as they would never have shipped even an alpha without it if any of them had the slightest idea of how impactful and damaging this is.


In terms of fix - I do not care if they don't put it in the UI yet and just stick it in a config file. Until there is some means to apply this setting, this game is a waste of money (tempted to refund as unplayable, utterly broken etc until they fix this) and early access is no excuse whatsoever. Saying 'soon' is not good enough.

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Just for info. The need for an inverted mouse appeared, mostly, among flight simulator enthusiasts where pushing forward (mouse up) on the control yoke yielded a nose-down flight attitude and vice versa as per normal aircraft control. People who were not into Flight Sims regarded this as strange and used the mouse-up nose up norms of computer mouse control.


Once muscle memory is used to either method, switching to the other becomes an uncontrollable comedy of high amplitude sky-foot-sky-foot control overshoots. For many, including me, it makes the game completely unusable because movement is blighted by the war between the eye-brain and arm. As someone who is ambidextrous with the mouse and uses different style keyboards, it's quite interesting how impossible a, seemingly, trivial thing like this is to overcome.

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The best way I've explained it to people is to imagine your mouse if a hand on the back of someone's head. When you push the mouse up you are pushing their head to rotating their chin down. When you pull down on the head it rotates so their chin goes up.

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It isn't just flight sim enthusiasts. Even regular everyday people do this. A guy on the Steam forums (can't remember his name) explained it like this: Stand your phone up on any surface vertically and then turn on the camera. Place your hand on top of the phone and try to make the camera look up and down while keeping the bottom of it in one spot. Notice which direction you move your hand? Heck you don't even need a phone to do this. 99% of humanity tilt their heads back to look up and tilt it forward to look down. The other 1% are being studied by the government for their ability to alter reality.

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These seem like the reasons why an aircraft is controlled as it is. I was just trying to explain how a pile of, maybe older, folks got into inverted mouse control PC gaming in the first place. For me, it was '90s flight sims - before many here will have been born!

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skill issue

I jest.

I truly don't have this problem, personally, I change my controls for every game I play multiple times before I'm satisfied with them. I've had over 15 different configurations for Katana Zero and I've spent hours reconfiguring Elite Dangerous. I map things to what I naturally feel like I should be doing, and even though I can adjust does not mean boomer bro over here can too. I agree that this is a problem. It's not a bug, but it is clearly an oversight and I genuinely wonder how the game got to the state it is without inverted-y. Why would you do this to your game testers? Do you have game testers? Are WE the game testers? We, the game testers, would like some basic QOL. Keybindings should have been in one of the very first functional builds, in my not-so-humble opinion. How else do the developers actively test things? Wouldn't you, as a developer, make it a high priority to make your testing environment tuned to your liking so you can quickly navigate the game world? I'm actually concerned about this. This is a red flag, to me. Is there a debug menu so we can manually rebind, half-life 2 style, at least? I could accept that as the working model, but to have nothing? Very strange, to me.

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@Chris Waller Agreed. I find it fundamentally impossible to believe literally nobody at Keen plays with an inverted mouse. I also want to know how something like being able to actually control the character is not considered at the very least "hotfix" important.

@Keen Many of us could not care less if the game crashes because we can't play it without an inverted mouse to begin with.

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Do you know what developers do? They simply deal with it and get used to it. Why should there anyone not be possible to play with a not inverted mouse? It's all just a question of getting used to it. I dialed with that in the past on other games as well, took me maybe 30-60 minutes to get used to it.


It's not a deal breaker like some players make it out to be. They just start the game, see it's not what they're used to, see there are no options and they post a message on the forum complaining instead of just taking the time to get used to it.


That would even have a positive effect. What effect? Since you have spent a lot of time with both types, future changes are only a matter of a few minutes.


My own example: I am left-handed and played for years with the mouse to the left of the keyboard, at some point 15 years ago I switched to the right and now only play with the mouse on the right. An friend of mine, who is also left-handed, has his mouse on the left and has even swapped the mouse buttons, which I have never done myself. And when I need to do something on his computer (he doesn't know much about PCs), I just sit down and use the mouse with my left hand without any problems. I can use the mouse with both hands without it feeling wrong. Only the swapped mouse buttons are a little irritating for the first few minutes.


But anyway, this feature comes now and I guess we will soon see it. I'm simply happy that I never will have a issue with such stuff because I know I can adapt quickly.

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@Balmung I'll politely ask you not to speak for me and/or tell me what I can and can't get used to. Thanks.

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@Belmung, that's great for you and your experience, and I'm happy you can adapt quickly. I cannot, and it's one of those things that I expect from *every* game I play, so never have to get used to it. It's like in the old days I used to play games with arrow keys as games wouldn't let you change to WASD. This is now such a feature I would find it interesting to see people try to play a first or third person game going back to using Arrows when they have played their whole life on WASD.


I feel excluded from the early access because of this lack of understanding for a group of gamers who cannot adapt to inverted/non-inverted, and I'm allowed to feel that way. I'm fortunate in many ways that this is my only gripe, I feel for gamers out there with real challenges playing games that don't allow them to rebind keys etc. when they need those accommodations to play. My issue is not really accessibility and in gaming this is still a relatively new and poorly understood topic, so I can see Accessibility being something not included in Early Access, even if that may be wrong, but inverted mouse is in literally *every* game I've played since the 90s, I can't think of a single game it wasn't in. So the fact is is missing from this game is concerning at least.

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@XionXxen If players really tried to get used to it and couldn't, I'm totally fine with that. But I have problems with players who never really tried it. That was mainly my point and that's why I mentioned all that stuff I learned from giving it really a try.

I was also so much used to keyboard and mouse, that I was horrible bad to play shooter with a gamepad, it took me weeks until I was good enough and it felt good. Today I play games with keyboard+mouse or with gamepad, depending on the game and my mood. I'm happy that I have this options today. So all what I want to say is that it can take sometimes a bit time.


@ParGellen: I can't do that anyway, you need to found that out yourself. But you are right, my post was a bit too straight. All what I wanted was to say that there is a chance you can get used to it and that it never will bother you in the future as much if a game didn't have directly a inverted mouse feature.


I also missed games in the past because there was some stuff so different from what I was used to, that I had to jump over my shadow to get used to it and pretty much every time I was glad that I did. But as older I get I notice that I also get more lazy, but I don't want to fall into that.


If you decide that is absolutely nothing for you, fine. I just want to share my experience.

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@Balmung If you want to know what it is like for most normal people to try to switch from inverted to non-inverted then here is a simple way for you to experience it. Simply place your mouse on the floor and then play the game with your feet. After 2 or 3 minutes when you claim to have mastered that find a post online where someone is complaining about it and then attempt to trivialize their problem and tell them they are wrong.

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https://github.com/oleg-st/InvertMouse


it kind of solves the problem, but with DirectAccel you wait 1s when opening and closing menus before the mouse returns to the desired behaviour, and Intercept appearently flags you on anticheat software, so if you dont care about gen-z MTXgames you should be fine :D

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Interesting, this stupid 1 second delay is on purpose to make it more anti cheat friendly... how dumb is that? XD


@ParGellen: first off, that comparison is bad, that is something complete different because you need to use a complete other body part you never have trained for such interaction. You hand is trained to use a mouse, at least I would guess. It is therefore much more difficult to get used to using your feet, and yet many people manage to use a mouse when they have no other option.

So I say it more clearly: Humans are extremely adaptable, most of them just have no desire to adapt.

And I can certainly understand that, I don't feel like conforming to many other things either. I have no problem criticizing myself, I know my weaknesses and admit them to myself and I also go into self-defence mode often enough.

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@Balmung Your inability to comprehend basic fundamentals of reality is not my responsibility. Good luck in life.

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@balmung: si tacuisses, philosophus mansisses.

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The solution from ... works for me.

Thanks.

@davd


https://github.com/oleg-st/InvertMouse

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The GitHub InvertMouse solution is not a fix for me for the missing inverted mouse LOOK game option. Applying the InvertMouse driver does invert the mouse but it is then wrong for menus and Windows as the inversion affect is global and goes beyond just the game look scope as it's being done at the driver level.


So, for me, while it does allow me to move comfortably in the game (so, thank you to those that mentioned it as a possible fix), it's a complete PITA anywhere I'd want a normal non-inverted mouse operation (i.e. everywhere outside of the game look operation i.e. where a mouse cursor appears on screen). Only Keen can properly fix this and being slow to do so makes me worry that the game engine might not be that easily maintainable or expandable or that insufficient resources are being applied to SE2. Regardless, it's not a great look IMHO.


TBH, the anger in me is rising because I do feel I was misled into buying a game with a critical missing feature that was not clearly indicated in the documentation. Had it been stated that invert mouse look was not present, I would not have bought SE2. I trusted Keen that even the limited game would be playable for me and I could tolerate the slow feature increments but the game is not playable for me.


Quite literally, I've gambled my money in the hope of being alive when the inverted mouse look option is provided rather than having something I can play now.

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I totally agree. Mouse invert is a not a *feature*, it's a missing game mechanic. I similarly would likely have waited until it was there before buying.

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@J G Stirling

haave you tried it? thats not what it does. in inverts the mouse as long as the cursor is hidden, but with DirectAccel it takes 1000ms to switch back and forth. thats the whole thing. with Interception its instant, but interception is flagged by some zoomer-weeb-games, so normal people should be fine.

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First of all.

The "fix" propouse by @davd its simple , easy to install and use.

The game its in BETA. its ok to no be complete.

If u dont like it, dont play it, dont buy it , and dont bitch about it.


Let the team work and be kind.


Davd.. again., really tanks. I owe u a beer. Head ups early if plan to visit argentina.!!!

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Hi Diego,

We don't need a fix for a bug or a feature not present, we need invert mouse to be included in the game. We are allowed to bitch about it as we bought the game. We love Space Engineers. I went in eyes open that this was Early Access and was clear on the features included, and those coming in other Vertical Slices. I wasn't aware mouse invert would not be included and don't particularly feel like installing a piece of 3rd party software.

You are also correct that I just don't play it, and if I wasn't happy to support Keen in Early Access I would have refunded it already. I haven't, it's just sitting there waiting for me to play.

I think I am being kind, letting them know how much of a problem this is for a certain group of gamers, and letting them know that we want a fix, even if it's a .ini edit, or something else similar.

Until then I'll leave it in my library and installed, waiting for them to implement it.

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Oops..I was using RawAccel directly with an inverted mouse configuration. I didn't realise I needed to also run the InvertMouse app to get the cursor detection. You are correct, it works as you describe. Thank you!


I'm using Interception now - I'll take the risk for the better performance.

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@Diego Will it be fixed? I'm pretty sure it will. Does it concern us to the point of complaining that Keen doesn't consider such a basic and fundamental part of the game important enough to include in the alpha release? Of course it does. So here we are.

By your same logic: If you don't like it then don't read it.

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@naysayers

As someone who is completely normalized flying without invert; you're pissing up the wrong tree. This game has flight, and with flight comes inverted controls. Industry STANDARD. This would absolutely make or break sales if inverted gamers knew before purchasing. In addition to that; is a relatively easy thing to implement. It's a boolean checkbox that multiplies two different values (maybe just one value, probably) by -1, at it's basics. Implementation isn't as easy as it sounds, but it's definitely not much harder than tweaking configs and it's not as difficult as implementing a "new feature". To be clear, this isn't a feature. It's a configuration. An option. An option that the vast majority of flight simmers and space simmers prefer on.

Given that this is a space sim, which also includes flight, means that the status quo all but demands it's place. It's also noteworthy to recognize that the developers are absolutely going to implement this feature. This isn't even a question. Keenswh isn't stupid, Marek isn't stupid, the players aren't stupid. If you don't see the point of this "bug" report as anything more than a reminder of "hey, you forgot a pretty important detail if you want us to come in here and test this game, we're going to need to be able to play it effectively", I have some bad news. Which is the same premise behind all the "keyboard configuration" reports as well. This is an ALPHA, not even a BETA, so maybe you should be educated on the topic before commenting. Alphas, by and by, are luxury devoid. They are "few features are implemented and likely buggy", but as I stated before, this isn't a feature. It's a way of life wrapped in a single boolean checkbox. So to try and pull that card like it's not supposed to exist just because the game is fresh in development. It's literally just something that should have been baked in to the flight controls from the very beginning. So much so that it is actually an oddity to A. not be the default and B. not be an option.

I'm not even mad at keenswh. they have bigger fish to fry, but these people jumping in here to try to dissuade the developers from addressing this problem are shills or zealous spies and I don't particularly appreciate the subterfuge.


Again, I DONT EVEN FLY INVERTED, playing like that makes me sick and I refuse to engage in that kind of behavior unless I'm on a flight stick. I just want the majority of players to be able to play the game so we can get some actual reviews, opinions, impressions out there to boost sales. This game is shelved for a very large portion of players until this issue is handled. So kindly bugger off and go yell at the kids in the steam discussions crying about "this is just a glorified demo" and put your time to better use than oppressing boomers who still want to game.


EDIT: And I distinctly remember when space engineers came out and I didn't have inverted controls I thought to myself "Thank GOD", became curious if it was even an option, checked the settings and low and behold it existed as a checkbox and I said to myself "Ah yes, for the weirdos". Nothing verbatim, but I remember that feeling.

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Part of the problem here is the labelling. To me (and others - check Google etc) Alpha test builds should be close to feature complete and this phase is designated for small-team internal testing before releasing Beta test builds to larger testing groups (including, possibly, users).


Instead, what we have here is a very immature development build (which is fine, and Keen has talked about this) but I would much rather they hadn't designated it as "Alpha". IMHO, in it's current state, SE2 is not complete enough to justify "Alpha" build status.

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