Modding in Space Engineers 2 - Steam Workshop

Thank you for your detailed reply. I’d like to address your points to clarify why many of us in the modding community remain committed to the Steam Workshop and why we are concerned about transitioning exclusively to Mod.io.

Ease of Use:

• While it's true that Steam Workshop integration in Space Engineers isn't perfect, the existing workflow has become familiar to many modders. You’re correct that the official method involves using the in-game menu to upload and update mods, which isn't ideal. However, community tools have evolved to fill these gaps and streamline the process. These tools, though unofficial, are widely adopted and demonstrate the modding community’s resilience and preference for the Steam ecosystem.
• The issue with Mod.io isn't necessarily that it's harder to use, but that it introduces a completely new workflow that many experienced modders will have to adapt to. Transitioning to Mod.io disrupts well established practices and forces modders to rebuild workflows they’ve honed over years of using the Steam Workshop. The frustration isn’t just about change it’s about losing an ecosystem we’ve built around and integrated deeply into our modding practices.

Integrated Functionality:

• Yes, Mod.io has functionality within the game, but it doesn't provide the same level of convenience and familiarity as the Steam Workshop for many PC modders. The Steam Workshop’s integration with Steam itself where users can easily browse, subscribe to mods, and see updates through the Steam client is a significant advantage. Mod.io lacks this external integration, which many users and modders find valuable for discovery and management.

Community Ecosystem:

• The Steam Workshop’s ecosystem has indeed evolved over time. While some larger mods and frameworks direct users to Discord for feedback and support, this isn’t an inherent flaw of the Workshop but rather a choice by those creators. The Workshop still serves as a central hub for browsing, discovering, and initially interacting with mods.
• Comparing Space Engineers to other games that don’t use Steam Workshop doesn’t negate the success that this community has had with it. Other games have their own ecosystems, but that doesn’t mean switching ecosystems is automatically better for Space Engineers.

Lack of Choice and Fragmentation:

• The concern about choice leading to fragmentation is valid, but the context here matters. Previously, modders had the choice between Steam Workshop and Mod.io. Many opted to stick with the Workshop because it fit their needs and aligned with their workflows. By removing Steam Workshop, that choice is eliminated, and the transition becomes a forced one. This doesn’t solve fragmentation it forces consolidation at the cost of alienating modders who prefer the current system.
• Moreover, the fragmentation argument applies more to the player base than the modding community. Modders will typically use the tools that align with their audience. Removing Steam Workshop could lead to some modders leaving altogether, thus reducing content availability for players. The result is fewer mods and potentially a diminished experience for users who are accustomed to the rich modding ecosystem Space Engineers currently enjoys.

Monetization:

• While Keen hasn’t confirmed monetization for Mod.io, it remains a concern because Mod.io has the capability built into its platform. The worry isn’t baseless it’s a preemptive concern based on the platform’s features and potential directions. Monetization could shift the modding community’s focus from passion-driven creation to profit-driven competition, which risks undermining the collaborative and innovative spirit that has defined Space Engineers modding.
• Additionally, introducing monetization could alienate players, who have become accustomed to free mods on the Steam Workshop. Charging for mods could introduce a financial barrier, reducing accessibility and fragmenting the player base between those who can afford mods and those who cannot.

Final Thoughts:

• The frustration isn’t just about the shift to Mod.io it’s about the loss of an ecosystem that has worked well for many PC modders for years. The Steam Workshop isn’t without flaws, but it has been the foundation for a thriving modding community. Transitioning to Mod.io may be necessary for consoles, but forcing it as the sole option for PC modders feels like a step backward for those who have built their workflows and community around the Steam ecosystem.
• Change is always challenging, but for a community as integral to the success of Space Engineers as its modders, it’s important that changes prioritize their needs and preferences. Keeping the Steam Workshop alongside Mod.io would allow Keen to expand modding support without alienating its core modding base. This would preserve the best of both worlds and ensure that the transition to Space Engineers 2 builds on the strong foundation of its predecessor.

"The Steam Workshop does not make uploading or updating mods straightforward. It in fact provides no tooling to do so. The provided/official way is to fire up SE, go to the Load Game Screen, in to the settings for a save, and then in to the mod list for that save. From there you have the ability to "publish" mods, but it is never made clear that it is also how you update them too. This workflow isn't provided by Steam, Steam doesn't provide one. While there are community tools, they are just that... community made."

This will be no different than with Mod.IO on SE2, however, many community members already utilize tools to upload their mods to Steam without needing to open SE. While yes, these are community made, they DO exist. These are not restricted to the "Space Engineers" community, we can utilize tools from any source as Steam is a HUGE platform with various resources available to us. So yeah, sure, we can make new tools, but it seems like unnecessary effort when referring to a perfectly working system as is.

"Additionally the Steam Workshop has odd and completely unexplained restrictions like the thumbnail size limit of 1MB. And the thumbnail itself is a part of how un-straightforward managing your steam mods are. You can't update the thumbnail through the workshop interface. Nope, its a part of the mod itself and needs to be changed via updating the *entire mod*. ie firing up SE, going in the load game screen, etc"

Mod.io has similar odd and unexplained restrictions.. you're not getting away from weird issues.

"Like where most of the big mods/frameworks have disabled comments on their pages, and require you join their Discord for help and feedback?"

I feel like this is personal preference and not platform specific. I would personally prefer to refer a user to my dedicated communication platform rather than searching comments. Mod.io offers no benefits to Steam in this regard. Mod authors like to build up a community and often this leads to great collaborations. Being someone who is in multiple modder Discords, I prefer being able to go to one place to talk about ANYTHING a mod author does, over trying to find links and comment on ten different mod pages.

"You mean like SE with the Steam Workshop for the first.. how many years was it? well SE was out on Steam for seven years before the first console release, admittedly neither got mod/workshop support immediately."

This is kind of a moot point as well. Steam had workshop support *from nearly the beginning* and many modders built their home there. Some were forced to also use Mod.Io due to consoles, but I'd wager a majority of them wouldn't have chosen to if there was an option. On that same note, many modders have stated they simply have no intention of using Mod.Io, so if they do not add Steam support, they simply won't mod SE2.

"We already have fragmentation because of the two workshops in SE. Pick one - lack of choice. Have two - fragmentation. Choice in this kind of situation leads to fragmentation. I get arguing for one or the other, but these last two points (which are one after the other in your post) are diametrically opposed to each other."

The difference is I think the fragmentation would be even worse, with many stating they simply won't use Mod.io for various reasons. So instead of people using system a or system b, its simply "not modding" or "use system a." We've had workshop support for over a decade, people have built up followers and subscribers, forcing them to a new system doesn't make sense, Marek has already commented publicly that if people dislike the decision, they will talk about Steam support. It seems its just a choice at this point, and there's not a real strong reason for not doing it, if there is, they should make that clear to the playerbase..

"Heck, this disconnection from Steam means that.. it's not tied to Steam. This will mean that Keen isn't.. tied to Steam, should they ever want to release SE2 on other platforms. Oh wait this happened with SE and they needed to add mod.io support for those other platforms. And this caused fragmentation."

I think any "fragementation" in the mod world when referring to mod.io currently is because the console version of SE is severely limited compared to the PC version. This limit actually prohibits certain mods from being used, and the rule of thumb generally refers to "mod.io mods are good with consoles" so there's a lot of annoyance when a modder is asked to move their mod there, as it can't work on a console. Overall *using* Mod.Io is much clunkier, so there's a lot of uproar about it as it is.

Easy of Use (New workflow):

That was always going to be the case with the new game. Even without Keen having stated that they are building a mod-hub on top of mod.io, it was never going to be the same process for SE2 that it was for SE. And any community tooling would need to be rebuilt regardless of where said mods were being hosted anyway. (This was something I should have brought up in my first post, but I hit send then realized my mouse had gotten away from my brain...). We don't even know if SE2 will need let alone want any new community tooling.

The existing workflow isn't a mod.io/SW thing anyway. It's entirely on Keen, Steam doesn't provide a workflow. I do however see an [Add Item] button on the SE mod.io page...

Integrated Functionality:

The discussion here was about the in-game features, for which mod.io has complete parity with the SW. Any other "integration" you have mentioned is entirely outside of SE. And you can subscribe to mod.io mods from their website anyway.

Community Ecosystem:

Your first point is entirely valid, and its something that can (and does) happen no matter where mods are posted.

The second point however... really just proves that it doesn't matter where the mods are. A new game provides a split regardless of where the mods are hosted. You will get existing modders sticking with the old game, moving to the new one, working with both or retiring. And you will get new modders for the new game. This is just one of those things that happens, and is independent of where the mods are.

Lack of Choice and Fragmentation:

This is really one of the more complex topics.

Previously modders had no choice. And then they had a choice, but there was this stigma that "mod.io is for consoles". Not to mention that most of the bigger modders for SE already existed (and had retired or abandoned their mods), and owned/played the game on Steam. Not to mention that console players had functionally no way of creating mods despite their ability to upload them to mod.io. A console player even made an enquire to Keen about this trying to get ahold of enough of the SE files to be able to make mods, and were told "no".

Many modders opted to stick to Steam Workshop for a couple of reasons

• Double the support load being one of them (actually worse than that, since it was more difficult to get logs and debug information out of players using the consoles),
• Many of the complex mods couldn't be used on consoles making them think that it was pointless to upload to mod.io. Though mod.io provided no such restrictions, and mods on mod.io being used by Steam players had none of the console restrictions. And some of the bigger/more popular mods that were capable of being ported to a server-only architecture were ported over, like MES.
• Bad experiences. This could be any one of a number of things, from lackluster moderation from mod.io staff, a lack of features (many of the ones people complain about aren't even not-there anymore. and Cpt Jacks recent video isn't going to help this misinformation), to a lack of tooling.
• hurr durr consoles bad. There isn't really anything to elaborate on here since many of the people who have this take about consoles don't actually have any reasons for it, they just don't like consoles, console players, anyone who ever thought about a console or looked in the direction of one when they were a kid and their friend had an n64 with this awesome "goldeneye" game.
  

Monetization:

While I agree that this could be a concern, with how SE mods/modding and multiplayer were architectured I don't see this being a big concern. At worst I could see it being like DLCs in SE, where you need to own it to use it. The even worse idea of you needing to own the mod to join a server that uses it I don't see being a thing. At it's best only the server/session owner needs to own it, and then anyone can use it. This is how a few games have done DLC/Expansion content. Alienation is definitely a concern if it does happen, but I reckon the scaremongering noisy people will make about it regardless of implementation will be worse than it actually is if it does happen.

Final Thoughts:

The loss of ecosystem is going to happen anyway. It's a new game, with new restrictions, new features, new opportunities, and this is all completely independent of where mods might be hosted. None of the tooling was going to work anyway, outside of some of the generic non-SE stuff.

Change was going to happen anyway, its a new game. If modding was exactly the same as in SE then I would be highly disappointed, Keen has had many years to figure out what works and doesn't work from SE in that regards, and improve on it. And would you believe that modding has been something they have mentioned from some of the earliest VRage3 posts?

Question. Based on the wording of the announcement this says Steam will be the primary platform, implying more than one platform to share stuff. Does this mean we'll be able to choose between Steam and/or mod io like we can now with SE1, or is going to be purely steam?

Much appreciated for this fantastic news and props to Keen for being willing to change course.

I was thinking that too as I read it. It has the ChatGPT formatting I've seen when trying to converse with it using a lot of information. Be that as it may, the post is still valid. Moving to Mod.io would alienate me, because I am stupid. I can follow instructions, and even have a modded setup for Elden Ring that work, but I would basically have to relearn how to do everything if I went more than a few weeks without fiddling with it.

The paragraph after the 3 bullet points in the first comment tells me that Mod.io is even more useless than I thought. I would always struggle to remember where the download button was so I could actually mod things. Apparently, it's even less intuitive for the mod poster. Also: Mods should not be money-gated. If you wanna get paid for your mods, go mod Roblox and make another soulless cash grab gacha game tycoon obby (FREE ROBUX!) like everyone else.