Reject the Tech Tree idea or change it

Kuroshi shared this feedback 3 years ago
Under Consideration

First off: This Idea report will ignore most of the advices for a good idea report such as only handling one thing per idea, since the topic is a bit larger than your average report.

Please read the entire Topic, I will not rant about how I dislike this idea but rather about how, if it gets implemented, this could be done in the best way possible.


On the SE feedback site, there was this idea marked as "started" https://feedback.keenswh.com/idea/tech-tree-plz-59bb458b0396c

I generally consider this a bad idea because it locks gameplay behind a wall which I do not appreciate, nor does this limit make any sense to me in the current state of SE.

Note: I currently have 1.132 hours in SE and am one of the Admins of Sol Trading Co, a large modded server with many active players.


First of all: If the development team does indeed still view this as a good idea: Please make it toggle-able. Many people such as myself do not like it at all.Now to making this feature as good as possible if you do choose to implement it and do the above, which I consider mandatory.

1. Customization!

Make this tech tree something that can bee freely edited even with modded blocks, which is, in my mind the only way to even let this make sense.


2. More Blocks!

Currently, Space Engineers does not have that many blocks if you look at it as a Sandbox game. There would be the possibility of making Tiered blocks or blocks with customizable values, especially for armor, turrets, thrusters and gyroscopes, and of course, but not only the following that the SE community really wants:

-More armor shapes

-Airtight conveyor tubes and tube corners

-small grid glass/doors

These would add to the game a lot. I know that the general opinion of Keen is that SE has too many blocks already, which is the exact opposite of what the community thinks(See https://support.keenswh.com/spaceengineers/general/topic/glass-for-small-ships)

, but I really want you to at least consider these again. This is SANDBOX, SE does not have too many blocks or options, it has too little. Ask any experienced player or modder if they would like more blocks, the majority will say YES.


3. More ores and ingots/more complex ores and ingots

It is really easy to get all of the current ores and to refine them. Add more different ores and ingots and add special ways to refine them with special blocks, either a fully different refinery or an upgrade module for this purpose. Make complex ingots that require assembly with the help of multiple less complex ingots


4. Playtests

Since Keen now does playtests a lot, I would ask for a an active playtesting of this feature to see if anyone actually likes what Keen thinks of as a good tech tree, since it would be a major part of gameplay.

Best Answer
photo

I pretty much agree.

The game, as defined by Marek is (direct quote):

Regarding the vision - as said in many previous blog posts and interviews, Space Engineers is an experimental game, where this first installment focuses on sandbox. For this reason we had to put there as many mechanics as possible. This is our vision.
A sandbox, which means a game without a purpose, and without enough blocks for creative freedom, has no reason for a "tech tree". It's not like we have hundreds of unique blocks in the game, we have just a few dozen. In addition, you need a significant amount of those blocks to make anything usable anyway. For example, ships need: thrusters, gyros, power/fuel source, controller (cockpit or RC). Any one of those missing, and you don't have a ship. Rovers, you need: wheels, power/fuel source, controller (cockpit/RC). Granted, rovers are much more practical in that regards, this works in to my next point....


Resources:

In order to build the above blocks, you need to have found pretty much every ore. The exceptions are Uranium, Platinum, and Magnesium. You still need Iron, Nickel, Cobalt, Silicon, Gold, and Silver. That means you need to find the overwhelming majority of ore to build something usable. I'm not sure of the best way to solve this conundrum, but it is worth discussing as part of an overall plan. Personally, I don't like a tiered system if it leads to obsolete blocks (+1 for upgrade block mechanic). Obsolete blocks serve little to no purpose once you'd progressed past it, and is just dead weight, or G-menu spam.

Just bits and pieces at a time (via tech tree progression) don't make a lot of sense.

More blocks:

Yes please! I don't mean more variants to blocks we do have (like more power sources), but unique blocks visually. I would love dozens of non-functional decoration blocks, to make our creations looks realistic, or otherwise fulfill the goals we make for ourselves.... since the game has zero.

More ore:

Certainly! I don't think we need every single element on the periodic table, but double what we have now would be great. With some ore substituting in for others where possible. For example, we could have copper as an alternate for gold in some places, like computer components. Leave gold to higher end stuff like superconductors or highly specialized computers. For example, leave copper for door computers, and gold for gravity gens computers. Something that gives you tech tree style progression, without locking you behind the necessity to find every single ore.


To that end, and to reiterate what I said before: SE is trying to be a "sandbox" game mode, without the actual requirements of a sandbox environment, meaning more options (blocks). Compare to an actual sandbox. You have sand, and you have a shovel (trowel). You can make some stuff like walls and a moat, but try to make a castle tower, you won't be effective. Now you have a bucket, and you can make castle towers. However you still can't make effective battlements. If you have a small square container, or even a special bucket with cutouts, you can make battlements.

More tools, more options.

Comments (17)

photo
1

I agree with the tech tree toggle.

photo
2

I feel like progression should be more natural then a forced in tech tree, more like the idea with platinum: you go specific places to get specific minerals to unlock certain blocks. Like ion thrusters for example.

photo
1

I really think the tech tree is a horrible idea with the amount of blocks we have and they think we have "too many blocks". I think making a ship survive clang is enough. I rather have the dev time be spent on adding interesting content and not one that restrains existing ones.

photo
1

I disagree. A tech tree is generally a great way to ease players in to a game by not throwing everything at them at once. And I don't doubt the tech tree will be optional. Everything else is, why wouldn't this?

photo
2

It seems to me that this topic has little to do with the actual tech tree and more about the lack of blocks (to which I _do_ agree).

photo
2

That is indeed true. I could have named this "How to implement a tech tree in the best possible way" too, alas I wanted to state that I generally dislike the idea. I do believe that more blocks, especially tiered ones, would bring a more believable aspect to a tech tree, which could then become a feature even people who are more on my side of this would like to have in the game

photo
photo
1

as for the ores idea, i would be looking at something like the mechanism mod, refining ores in special ways to gain more value and ingots at the end, as for what ores too add I guess a start would be adding coal(cheap power on planets?) and diamonds (for diamond tipped elite drill or grinder etc) zing tin etc.

photo
1

I cant Understand how you know how keen wants to do it.. the post you leave is too general.. and you predict something what Marek denied many times. .

photo
1

I don't know how Keen wants to do it, but I can guess from their game design philosophy.This post is not something that says "Implement this", it is simply my contribution to how I think they could vastly improve the game and I took the addition of a tech tree as standpoint since I think in current SE, this would be a step backwards

photo
photo
1

Hi, We review, change and polish every feature, which we add to the game. When we are ready we will do another public test to get your feedback.

photo
5

I pretty much agree.

The game, as defined by Marek is (direct quote):

Regarding the vision - as said in many previous blog posts and interviews, Space Engineers is an experimental game, where this first installment focuses on sandbox. For this reason we had to put there as many mechanics as possible. This is our vision.
A sandbox, which means a game without a purpose, and without enough blocks for creative freedom, has no reason for a "tech tree". It's not like we have hundreds of unique blocks in the game, we have just a few dozen. In addition, you need a significant amount of those blocks to make anything usable anyway. For example, ships need: thrusters, gyros, power/fuel source, controller (cockpit or RC). Any one of those missing, and you don't have a ship. Rovers, you need: wheels, power/fuel source, controller (cockpit/RC). Granted, rovers are much more practical in that regards, this works in to my next point....


Resources:

In order to build the above blocks, you need to have found pretty much every ore. The exceptions are Uranium, Platinum, and Magnesium. You still need Iron, Nickel, Cobalt, Silicon, Gold, and Silver. That means you need to find the overwhelming majority of ore to build something usable. I'm not sure of the best way to solve this conundrum, but it is worth discussing as part of an overall plan. Personally, I don't like a tiered system if it leads to obsolete blocks (+1 for upgrade block mechanic). Obsolete blocks serve little to no purpose once you'd progressed past it, and is just dead weight, or G-menu spam.

Just bits and pieces at a time (via tech tree progression) don't make a lot of sense.

More blocks:

Yes please! I don't mean more variants to blocks we do have (like more power sources), but unique blocks visually. I would love dozens of non-functional decoration blocks, to make our creations looks realistic, or otherwise fulfill the goals we make for ourselves.... since the game has zero.

More ore:

Certainly! I don't think we need every single element on the periodic table, but double what we have now would be great. With some ore substituting in for others where possible. For example, we could have copper as an alternate for gold in some places, like computer components. Leave gold to higher end stuff like superconductors or highly specialized computers. For example, leave copper for door computers, and gold for gravity gens computers. Something that gives you tech tree style progression, without locking you behind the necessity to find every single ore.


To that end, and to reiterate what I said before: SE is trying to be a "sandbox" game mode, without the actual requirements of a sandbox environment, meaning more options (blocks). Compare to an actual sandbox. You have sand, and you have a shovel (trowel). You can make some stuff like walls and a moat, but try to make a castle tower, you won't be effective. Now you have a bucket, and you can make castle towers. However you still can't make effective battlements. If you have a small square container, or even a special bucket with cutouts, you can make battlements.

More tools, more options.

photo
1

The way i see it is if the tech tree is implemented in the correct way it won't feel grindy at all but simply just a part of the experience I welcome a change as I'm bored of the submarine warfare that currently exists in the meta there is no reasons once you have built your base and have a couple ships to ever explorer or go anywhere.


With that said I agree

it should be a togglable feature (Based on pass features I believe this to already be true )

It should be moddable (Because there are some amazing mods out there and more that could be created due to a tech tree)

There definitely should be more blocks and varieties / A clear progression that isn't just a recoloured turret ;) (EG: Energy weapons.Laser grinders etc)


I also feel that some ores should be found only on certain planets to encourage players to either trade those rare commodities or expand (Creates conflict)


Furthermore, I just want to add that even if for know we get a basic tech tree built in with the existing blocks and ore I feel that the modding community would flesh out the features with huge quantities of quality content much more than keen could ever create however having the actual tech tree be vanilla means that all mods use that one tech tree rather than lots of mods having their own variants / conflicts

photo
1

The Tech Tree should not include the things we already have except for maybe the jump drive, other than that I think that only advanced blocks like cloaking devices or shields should be used or refinery's specially made to improve yield. next to that upgrade modules that use rare resources in the form of crystals or complex molecular compounds, which can either be created or found. in either small quatity's while refining ores (maybe with a special upgrade). Basically what I mean is research for "Advanced" gameplay. The blocks we already have in SE are very basic and do not require any explanation, for me it took some 2 hours of experimenting, which is normal for SE to figure everything out. but the basic functions of blocks is just a 30 minute read in the inventory. figuring out how to build ships efficiently that's more of a hassle in SE and it is just about personal preference. I think Suit upgrades and item upgrades can be researched, but then it must give some special abilities to the suits and items rather than speed. The researched things, must in my opinion only include upgrades and blocks that have been improved with special resources (either rare to find or hard to make),


My point being that we now only really have the basic stuff and a research tree has made me quit multiple games as it never thought me how to play the game. rather it increased the time i needed to understand what the game is about, because I can't freely experiment with blocks.


So The basic blocks we now have should be the cheapest option and the researched stuff should include some materials that you can only find on certain planets or in cargo ships. which makes it the more expensive option. rather than plating your warpdrive in gold, use some rare crystal that is able to compute faster which will make you jump instantly (example).

Thing being that if you find a crystal spot you would be able to choose to upgrade your own ship or sell the crystals to some faction so that they can upgrade their warships. those things would increase the trade of goods that are more rare to find. and also making it a necessity to be careful about what you shoot at. possibly destroying the cargo bay with hundreds of crystals is not something you want.


my point being that research can bring more to the game if enough content is available, which is unlikely knowing we are working towards a SE2.

photo
1

How about we take the Tech Tree, and push it to some other game!

Seriously tho, the tech tree seems very arbitrary and pointless. You know what block you want to build, it's only annoying to have to build and grind down 5 other blocks to get there. It's completely pointless. Besides, there's always been a "tech tree" in SE, the components you need for the block you want to build. If we must have the mandatory tech tree, make it lock the upgradable tier blocks, like the better refinery and assembler, or the upgrade modules. And for gods sake, don't have the way to get them to be "spend some time welding and grinding again", either have an XP type system or have blueprints which you can find in the crashed ships/ pirate bases. Something which can actually be challenging, not just require extra time.

photo
1

Wow someone said reject or change it...


you have not been used too it therefor you can't say it's bad or not the thing you say when you say reject do you mean discard or destroy it?


I would really love to see you make a schematic or a research tree then!! I love it because you really have to begin from the beginning and that it's essential for every life. tell me if you had thought it this way old people die with there knowledge youngsters are learning new things and it repeats. you aren't a god that knows everything when landing on a planet or in modern times if so good luck learning everything to a new generation of a lifespan of 20-65 years.

photo
1

oh yeah, you said ore for god sake add Liquid nitrogen or just plain old Nitrogen we can use in our technology as advanced computer chips or something else I want more basic or more Grinding to the next tier because it's fun to build and mine /ENGINEERING stuff make gas mining or liquid pumps durable. I'm not saying water or something in that regard you could make it also out of Frozen nitrogen so that you need Heated cockpits or Heated conveyor systems.

photo
3

I agree, the current tech tree is not perfect.

My idea would be the implementation of unlockable tiers for most of the functional blocks. (Thruster, antenna...)

For example a T2 version of the Ore Detector would have an increased range, like +50% but needs additional rare ingots/components to be upgraded.

To do so, research the t2 version (with tech points via new AI block), go to the block you want to upgrade in control menu and press "unlock t2", go to then it with components and weld it up until t2 is fully unlocked. Done.

Maybe the g menu could also benifit from an extra tab only showing the tiered versions then, so you can build them directly instead of manually upgrading the t1 version.

photo
1

Just let people have the option to turn the tech tree on or off. That would solve 90% of the issues.

photo
1

You already can, you can turn it off in the advanced settings.

photo
1

yes yes i agree i have uploaded 1584 hours on SE

photo
photo
1

I'm up-voting this for one reason only... airtight conveyor tubes and corners. Also not a fan of the current tech tree system. Okay, that's two reasons. Meh.