Need for Exploration overhaul and improved engineering challenges and motivations

Blacky shared this feedback 5 years ago
Submitted

According to the game core vision, Exploration is one of the four pillar of Space Engineer's design: "Space Engineers is a sandbox game about engineering, construction, exploration and survival in space and on planets." (source) And I feel it's currently lacking.


I think the game would be vastly closer to its stated core vision if players had more and smarter challenges to overcome, more and better obstacles to engineer their way through or around, and more and better gameplay motivations to tackle those challenges.

Right now the game is easy to divide into 14 self evident "biomes" (for lack of a better word):

  1. Empty space (with dust or mini asteroids as potential resources)
  2. Big asteroids in space
  3. Earth like planet surface
  4. Earth like planet deep underground
  5. Mars like planet surface
  6. Mars like planet deep underground
  7. Alien planet surface
  8. Alien planet deep underground
  9. Earth like moon surface
  10. Earth like moon deep underground
  11. Europa moon surface
  12. Europa moon deep underground
  13. Titan moon surface
  14. Titan moon deep underground

And those can be further broken down, for example in low surfaces (valleys) and mountain ranges.

I think the differences between those "biomes" should be increased: players should (mostly) not be able to build a single vehicle design for all needs, nor a handful of them. Some "biomes" should heavily push players toward ground based vehicles, other might push them toward heavy atmospheric crafts, other toward static bases, other toward mobile base/platform, and so on and so on.

So those different "biomes" should have very different environments to generate different engineering challenges, but the game should also push players toward those different zones. Soft gating content, limiting the type or amount or frequency of some resources to some "biomes", special encounters, and so on.

On top of all that, apart from the first few minutes of pure visual joy, there's not much difference from one mountain to another, on side of a planet from another. In another words, apart from a little bit of resources hunting, there's very little to explore. I feel Space Engineers fell short of giving players reasons to explore, and rewards for doing so.

I would like to see more unique landscapes, architectural wonders and hell, and overall more weirdness that would awe players and reward exploration. Especially if those rare, weird, unique landscapes or features have both specific engineering challenges to them, and concrete real gameplay reward for tackling those challenges.

And on top of that (yes, again) there's the matter of re-playability. We'll need some kind of randomness, variation, or anything akin or remotely connected to procedurally generated content. Anything that would push us players to explore, tackle challenges and reward us for doing so, without being bored just following the wiki description or knowing it all by heart after having a few games under our belt.

Without copying the games of course, I think on those matters Space Engineers could take some inspiration from games likes Factorio and Subnautica; Factorio for the constant smart engineering challenges needed from the start of a game to its end, and Subnautica for the wonders and terrors of exploration.

Note: I didn't delve into specifics because it's too easy to get bogged down into small things like "limiting Uranium to planets only, or space only". The emptiness and boredom some players associate with Space Engineers is a vast subject, and I would like to get Keen Software to acknowledge the issue and their will to correct it before getting out of early access. Once they do, certainly we could help them iterate through many versions of small and medium changes that overall correct this. In other words, details later, coldly objectively comparing the current state of the game with its core vision of sandbox game about engineering, construction, exploration and survival in space and on planets should come first, in my opinion.

If this is too generic and Keen ask for it, I'm (and I'm sure a whole lot of other players) happy to give examples, ideas, and specifics.

Best Answer
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"Bull. I don't think tech should be gated away by necessitating travel to different planets. That's just a band-aid for a larger issue. Maybe ore patterns being more or less common in different areas, but a planet straight-up not having something? That's lazy programming and game development."

Of course, tech should be locked behind special places. Tell me one good game that is like SE where you can get everything at one place.


Just look at Minecraft for example you need to go to different dimensions to progress. First overworld then nether then the end. And every of those dimensions has their own specific ores/resources. And on top of this there are many, many different biomes and everyone got at least one new item that can be used for decorative or practical purpose. Imagine how boring Minecraft survival mode would be if everything the game has to offer could be gained without ever leaving the biome you started in.

Survival mode should confront the player with problems they need to solve by building differnt structures. Adding planet specific ores would add the problems of tarveling between planets landing and launching, as well as mining at different planets with different atmosphere/gravitation.

Replies (3)

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4

You're literally asking for what they're giving us. I wish they'd implement a downvote system on this feedback site.

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3

I don't think that's the case.

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1

What's not the case?

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Currently there is no "reward" for vistiting a planet you could stay in space forever and would progress faster.

I think he wants to say give planets more and unique hazards and add some "loot" at those places like new ores blueprints, ...

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6

I agree with Janik and OP.

With similar games Like Empyrion, certain ores are only available in certain dangerous places, making you think about going there. But the need for them, forces you eventually.

Gold/silver, and platinum gate advancement.

This is good.

But i think we need a lower tier gate for atmo thrusters, like Cobalt or Nickel. Otherwise, rovers never get built or used. And this stuff should be available only on the poles, thus encouraging us to build rovers and drive there to mine it.

And then we need a max tier ore, that can only be found in dangerous places, like lava worlds, deeep underground, or in pirate bases.


that would give us reasons to explore, reasons to learn about rovers and ground vehicles, and make us earn the power of flight. Currently, if you can build a rover, you can build a flyer.

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2

Bull. I don't think tech should be gated away by necessitating travel to different planets. That's just a band-aid for a larger issue. Maybe ore patterns being more or less common in different areas, but a planet straight-up not having something? That's lazy programming and game development.


Utilizing a Grind-To-Learn system would have been significantly more influential than what we've been given. Having to capture pirate bases to learn their technologies and then having an extra rare piece of tech randomized in the PB of a District Headquarters would have been far better than what we got. Randomizing weapon loadouts on pirate ships so that you don't learn a configuration easily and always know the best avenue of approach would also do so much for the game.


I can guarantee you though, if they screw with the ore patterns like you guys suggest the number one mod I'll always load is one to remove that choice, and I'm not alone in that.

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2

Grind to learn seems like a good alt progression system.

And you make a good point about raiding pirate bases for them.

I'm in favour of that.


Given that they have progression as an option, it should not be too hard to implement GTL as an option too.

Esp as there are at least 3 mods for it in the workshop.

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5

"I don't think tech should be gated away by necessitating travel to different planets. That's just a band-aid for a larger issue."

Pushing players to go to different regions/zones/biomes should motivate part of the exploration's pillar of the game, and showcase the work done on those place (assuming those places have different feels and challenges from one another) and add the challenge of going there then settling or operating there, and so on.


But that push doesn't need to be utterly blunt or binary. It's a delicate balance that should take everything into account so I'm not going to go into specifics, but for example yes we can limit a resource to a single zone. Or, we can adjust the density of said resource points and the yield of those points. Like on planet A you get reasonable amount of small boulders of resource R, so a player will need to move around a lot to mine little yield. But on planet B, that resource R become common on regular mine point. And on planet C, you get only small yield R boulders even less frequent than on planet A, but you get a very small number of mine zone of R deep, deep into the core that have huge yield. And on asteroid cluster D you get zero mining R resource, but a AI enemy complex that receive frequent shipment of resource R from a mining complex on the other side of the solar system. And so on.


It's not just a binary present/not present. There's several parameters than ca be adjusted to vary the experience. And those could probably be either procedurally generated, or randomized a bit.

And, it's not just only planet A vs planet B versus space cluster Z. A resource can be varied (for frequency, yield per mining point, or type of resource like mining versus scavenging vs pirating) on a single planet, between valleys surface or near surface, top of mountains range, under ice lake, deep deep into the planet core, and so on.

A lot of different permutations and possibilities. With some randomization, that would help with exploration. And all of that should not be a "dreaming feature", it doesn't seem like it would be an unreasonable amount of work from Keen Software.


"Utilizing a Grind-To-Learn system would have been significantly more influential than what we've been given. Having to capture pirate bases to learn their technologies and then having an extra rare piece of tech randomized in the PB of a District Headquarters would have been far better than what we got."

I would agree, that seem like the type of systems and mechanics that would create emergent gameplay. Also known as a better game for the player while less work for the developer on the long run.


"I can guarantee you though, if they screw with the ore patterns like you guys suggest the number one mod I'll always load is one to remove that choice, and I'm not alone in that."

Certainly, but are you in the majority for this? That would be the question. Because I would think it's much, much easier to create a mod to undo that resource segmentation thing, than to write a mod to create it (and maintain it for years, with compatibility test for each new version of SE and updating on a regular basis).

So the question would be, given the limited and finite amount of time/work/money Keen Software is willing to put into Space Engineers from now until it's out of early access release, what would serve best the overall game and the most players (both now and in the long run).

I honestly don't know, but hopefully Keen have some real metrics on players expectations and feedback.

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4

I definitely agree with all of what you said, and think Neraph isn't just taking in what it means to limit ores to other planets. Right now when you think about it, you can land on earth and get every single ore except for platinum I believe, I understand that earth is supposed to be an easier start, but in terms of progression, while they can add a whole gate system for building where things need to be built before you can build later tiers, you can grind out the entire play through never leaving earth.


I know that space enginners' gameplay allows for awesome builds without actually being in SPACE, but the idea of having to build a rocket to go out of your planet, land on another one safely, setup a base there to process whatever ore only exists on this planet, and then setting up some kind of link between the two bases or what not sounds so much more fun, not even in the idea of exploration like subnautica, but the overcoming challenges in factorio.


It would also give other items that are really just more for fun to play with better uses, like the jump drive can be used to get away from enemies or move quicker through deep space, but you could use it to travel closer to a far away planet that has an ore you need, and so on.


Restricting ore to other planets and not just one, in my opinion is not sloppy coding, it's forcing people to go out and actually find the missing ore, plus while all the ores right now are ones you can find on earth IRL, if they add ores that are alien, why would they be on earth for instance?


I think changing the ores can both boost exploration, as well as replayability and the way you play will have to adapt to the being forced to go far or travel at all to get specific ores.

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Yes.

And on top of that, it could gel nicely with survival improvement like better PVE, smarter and more complex AI enemies, and other other general improvements. And give more tools and flexibility to people writing scenarios for Space Engineers.

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4

I agree the game needs more incentives to go to other planets and also to create Risk Reward situations for the player. You want that platinum ore vein? Unfortunately, there is an AI base and they are already mining it.


Yes SE is a sandbox game which rely strongly on intrinsic motivation, but still, sandbox games need and usually have some extrinsic motivations for the player (Minecraft, Subnautica, Terraria, Conan Exiles, etc.). SE is still lacking in those and it looks like Keen does not want or does not know how to solve that.


Right now SE is basically two games: Creative and Survival.

Creative is great and works nicely. I have spent so many hours building stuff and playing around with those. But the survival part is unfortunately quite lacking and to be honest from what I have seen from the current "big survival" update so far, it won't solve the survival gameplay issues if it doesn't give the players actual hazards (environmental, AI, etc) to build solutions for and some incentives for exploration. It will still have the same major issues like now.


But as I said, this won't happen in SE as it took Keen about a year for the new blocks and this lite progression system.

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"Bull. I don't think tech should be gated away by necessitating travel to different planets. That's just a band-aid for a larger issue. Maybe ore patterns being more or less common in different areas, but a planet straight-up not having something? That's lazy programming and game development."

Of course, tech should be locked behind special places. Tell me one good game that is like SE where you can get everything at one place.


Just look at Minecraft for example you need to go to different dimensions to progress. First overworld then nether then the end. And every of those dimensions has their own specific ores/resources. And on top of this there are many, many different biomes and everyone got at least one new item that can be used for decorative or practical purpose. Imagine how boring Minecraft survival mode would be if everything the game has to offer could be gained without ever leaving the biome you started in.

Survival mode should confront the player with problems they need to solve by building differnt structures. Adding planet specific ores would add the problems of tarveling between planets landing and launching, as well as mining at different planets with different atmosphere/gravitation.

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5

Scarce Ressources. That's just it. That mod is simple enough but work great.

Iron, nickel and silicon are available everywhere. But you want cobalt ? Only available on Earth. Uranium ? Only on alien planet. Platinum ? Only on Mars. Silver and gold ? Go to the moons. Want tons and tons of iron ? Asteroids.


With that you have a reason to go to the other planets, and it does not much cut possibilities. Starting on earth, you have all the main ores needed to make a fairly descent base and a first ship to reach space.

Yes, it can be difficult, you don't have access to the all-powerful-magical-solving-power-issues-uranium and have to think about other sources of power (that we now have, with wind, H2 engines and half-cost solar panels). Yes, it's engineering. And yes, it's great.

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Agreed Cassin, but that's exactly the type of things we want to see in Space Engineers as a game about engineering, construction, exploration, and survival. Although as I said, there's less binary and more subtile ways it could also be done.


Mods are great and full modding support is absolutely necessary, but they should not compensate deficiencies in vanilla core gameplay.

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I totaly Agree, but sadly i think keen will just say we will do it in future game like SE2. i hope they will do it to this game and soon, maybe next next update.

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   So those different "biomes" should have very different environments to generate different engineering challenges, but the game should also push players toward those different zones. Soft gating content, limiting the type or amount or frequency of some resources to some "biomes", special encounters, and so on.

More environmental effects sound interesting.

Like certain planets having winds, rains and snows that make atmospheric flight challenging (but allows rain collectors?), other environments attracting meteorites, magnetic fields that significantly decrease antennae range. e t c.

For space, something like: 'Closer' to the sun (on certain planets?) you get more light so solar panels are more effective but your suit can't handle the temperature. Further out the problem is opposite. But no idea how that is going to get implemented with the sun rotating around the universe. The center being zero solar power, edges being extra hot? Can't areas around planets be their own little chunks that do the skybox rotation and for everything else sun is stationary? That would be wierd if you will try to follow the sun out of the planet and have it gradually shift as if you are in orbit yet coordinates won't change, but it would be better than current implementation.

 
Just look at Minecraft for example you need to go to different dimensions to progress.

Minecraft is Minecraft, Space games are Space games. Having space games like Space Engineers require visiting different planets for different basic raw resources harms atmosphere something fierce (interstellar rift was harmed a lot when they did it). Most resources being abundant is part of the setting. Besides there are alternatives - like needing to buy blueprints for advanced missiles on Mars's military facilities, needing gravity for certain processes and needing zero-g for others. Superconductors for jump drives in particular are too easy to make in large quantities, so if player needs significant quantities there might be trades or mechanics to make those that would require switching environments (and may be the same for advanced electronics for some of the machines, like autopilot). And why is there no polymers or carbons? These are resources that can be easily and believably lacking from certain environments and present in others.

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