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Make the water mod a vanilla feature

David vd Bergen shared this feedback ago

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Gamers have gone all out and got real creative using the water mod.

I have seen so many cool ship designs in a short period of time. You can make it so specific types of ore only are to be found under water forcing the player to get into the water.

And if possible build stations under water to protect them from enemies.

It would make a huge addition to the game.

I like this feedback

Replies (3)

4

Doomed Person ●

There are so many issues with water that I have no idea why people keep asking for it.

First, water isn't really a core gameplay feature. While it's one of those kind of nice things to have, it isn't worth making sacrifices for, because it's a niche thing that is adequately filled by mods. Consider this to be dramatic foreshadowing.

Water is incredibly difficult to simulate effectively. You'd need to restructure the game engine to create an entirely new type of material in the game, figure out flowing, pressurization, storage, conversions between ice and water, interactions with objects and grids, do it again for stuff that isn't fully submerged, and evaporation. Add on mass and inertia, and it's effectively impossible.

On top of that, you'd actually need to simulate it. Which would be enough to significantly bump up the minimum tech requirements, and likely break performance. And there would be bugs and negotiations with Lord Clang, rendering it likely unplayable for a while.

Essentially, a semi-realistic implementation would kill SE flat out.

Assuming we go with the roleplay-prop implementation, it's still problematic. Pressurization would likely need an overhaul to work underwater, buoyancy would be weird at best, flooding and draining would be a mess, and flying around with a flooded compartment would be even more of a mess. Not to mention the difficulties with doing anything below sea level, and the various additional blocks required to handle water.

And the result? Anyone not obsessed with making spaceships into regular ships basically says "Huh... That's kind of cool, I guess." and moves on after a few minutes. Except for when they want to make an underground base.

Additionally, SE already has pressing issues. Clang still is a problem (although much less since the recent update), weapons have needed an overhaul for years, sim speed tanks whenever anything happens, and most of the highly upvoted stuff here is both more relevant to the playerbase and remotely plausible. Attempting to implement this would burn massive amounts of dev time that is sorely needed for literally anything else.

Water is a terrible idea as part of the base game.

There are so many issues with water that I have no idea why people keep asking for it.

First, water isn't really a core gameplay feature. While it's one of those kind of nice things to have, it isn't worth making sacrifices for, because it's a niche thing that is adequately filled by mods. Consider this to be dramatic foreshadowing.

Water is incredibly difficult to simulate effectively. You'd need to restructure the game engine to create an entirely new type of material in the game, figure out flowing, pressurization, storage, conversions between ice and water, interactions with objects and grids, do it again for stuff that isn't fully submerged, and evaporation. Add on mass and inertia, and it's effectively impossible.

On top of that, you'd actually need to simulate it. Which would be enough to significantly bump up the minimum tech requirements, and likely break performance. And there would be bugs and negotiations with Lord Clang, rendering it likely unplayable for a while.

Essentially, a semi-realistic implementation would kill SE flat out.

Assuming we go with the roleplay-prop implementation, it's still problematic. Pressurization would likely need an overhaul to work underwater, buoyancy would be weird at best, flooding and draining would be a mess, and flying around with a flooded compartment would be even more of a mess. Not to mention the difficulties with doing anything below sea level, and the various additional blocks required to handle water.

And the result? Anyone not obsessed with making spaceships into regular ships basically says "Huh... That's kind of cool, I guess." and moves on after a few minutes. Except for when they want to make an underground base.

Additionally, SE already has pressing issues. Clang still is a problem (although much less since the recent update), weapons have needed an overhaul for years, sim speed tanks whenever anything happens, and most of the highly upvoted stuff here is both more relevant to the playerbase and remotely plausible. Attempting to implement this would burn massive amounts of dev time that is sorely needed for literally anything else.

Water is a terrible idea as part of the base game.

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2

Lee ●

Yep, needs to be Vanilla just like Jakaria's weather mod became vanilla (which people said it couldn't be done and would kill the game I might add lol!). And ignore people like the long-winded but saying nothing poster above, because we've heard the same nonsense about everything from planets to safe zones to pressurization and everything between. They clearly haven't even used the water mod as even my friends with potato computers can easily use it, and it doesn't require any of the blah blah blah they went on about. Can't add planets they will kill the performance and you can't make them orbit so they wouldn't be realistic! Can't add safe zones shields those would be unrealistic! Can't add weather too much of a performance hit! We've heard it all, and they've been wrong again and again and again.

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1

Doomed Person ●

You've heard people strike down overly-ambitious suggestions that wanted outright impossible things, and extended it to your own choice of implemented ideas, to come out with "the same old nonsense" on something upon which this doesn't even apply. For example, the issue with safe zones isn't even related to this discussion.

Pressurization is a definite hit to sim speed, but not a massive one. If Keen had used overly-high standards on realism, like some people wanted, it might have been a problem.

Weather would have been a problem if Keen had gone with the sweeping planet-wide dynamic storm systems that many people suggested, and just as many shot down for killing performance. However, what we got was a much simpler system that still does its job.

Keen seems to also have gone with this approach with planets. Some people wanted planetary systems with rotation and orbits. Some people haven't figured out that the VRAGE engine doesn't support moving voxels. Stationary planets do the job just as well, and are basically giant asteroids with gravity and pressure. No massive undertaking.

With water, Keen seems like it would do the same thing as modders: simplified water. Except even simplified water has its own issues:

Water and naval combat are well-removed from the focus of this game, and only appeal to a specific subset of the player base.

Water would necessitate several new blocks specifically for handling it, which in turn increases the unnecessary complexity of this suggestion.

Underground bases below a certain level are difficult, if not impossible, to keep dry.

Underground mining is in an even worse state.

Buoyancy at the surface with changing grid mass and possible grid splitting/merging is a summoning ritual for Lord Clang.

Any kind of drag makes this factor even worse.

Water plain doesn't exist above sea level. I could name the issues with this, but I think the glaring downsides are fairly obvious here.

Many people won't even spend much time on water, because they bought Space Engineers to do engineering in space.

The devs have limited time and money, and can't spend time on features that people won't necessarily use all that often.

Space Engineers already has problems and weak areas such as combat, story, progression, survival elements, and the everpresent Clang, all of which should have higher priority than overhauling the perfectly adequate Ice system.

Not everyone is at all interested in water.

I thought I needed to make that point very clear, seeing as most people who support suggestions with major expansions in non-central directions don't seem to notice that not everyone is also interested in the same thing. Unlike planets, air, and weather, water is much less involved with spaceships and has no strong reason to be implemented.

So if you have a grand solution to all of these "blah blah blah" problems, which you seem to have missed on your first pass, explain it and I'll gladly add my upvote.

You've heard people strike down overly-ambitious suggestions that wanted outright impossible things, and extended it to your own choice of implemented ideas, to come out with "the same old nonsense" on something upon which this doesn't even apply. For example, the issue with safe zones isn't even related to this discussion.

Pressurization is a definite hit to sim speed, but not a massive one. If Keen had used overly-high standards on realism, like some people wanted, it might have been a problem.

Weather would have been a problem if Keen had gone with the sweeping planet-wide dynamic storm systems that many people suggested, and just as many shot down for killing performance. However, what we got was a much simpler system that still does its job.

Keen seems to also have gone with this approach with planets. Some people wanted planetary systems with rotation and orbits. Some people haven't figured out that the VRAGE engine doesn't support moving voxels. Stationary planets do the job just as well, and are basically giant asteroids with gravity and pressure. No massive undertaking.

With water, Keen seems like it would do the same thing as modders: simplified water. Except even simplified water has its own issues:

Water and naval combat are well-removed from the focus of this game, and only appeal to a specific subset of the player base.

Water would necessitate several new blocks specifically for handling it, which in turn increases the unnecessary complexity of this suggestion.

Underground bases below a certain level are difficult, if not impossible, to keep dry.

Underground mining is in an even worse state.

Buoyancy at the surface with changing grid mass and possible grid splitting/merging is a summoning ritual for Lord Clang.

Any kind of drag makes this factor even worse.

Water plain doesn't exist above sea level. I could name the issues with this, but I think the glaring downsides are fairly obvious here.

Many people won't even spend much time on water, because they bought Space Engineers to do engineering in space.

The devs have limited time and money, and can't spend time on features that people won't necessarily use all that often.

Space Engineers already has problems and weak areas such as combat, story, progression, survival elements, and the everpresent Clang, all of which should have higher priority than overhauling the perfectly adequate Ice system.

Not everyone is at all interested in water.

I thought I needed to make that point very clear, seeing as most people who support suggestions with major expansions in non-central directions don't seem to notice that not everyone is also interested in the same thing. Unlike planets, air, and weather, water is much less involved with spaceships and has no strong reason to be implemented.

So if you have a grand solution to all of these "blah blah blah" problems, which you seem to have missed on your first pass, explain it and I'll gladly add my upvote.

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2

Lee ●

Water is well removed from your idea of what the focus of the game should be. The same could be said of planets. The same could be said of combat, yet you've brought it up multiple times. So, you've contradicted your own argument. Plenty of things in the game from cosmetics to safe zone to jump drives were for "a specific subset of the player base. So you're entire argument is invalid. Next.

Water doesn't necessitate any new blocks, if you had used the mod, you'd know that. Clearly you haven't. so again, you have no point and make yet another invalid argument. Next.

Underground bases below water level on planets where water is used are as easy to keep dry as bases in space to be pressurized. You would know this if you had used the mod. Another invalid argument. Next.

Underground mining below water being more difficult is not an actual argument against anything. Something being more difficult to do for a player is not an argument, otherwise mining in gravity would be thrown out the window, because its more difficult than in space. Another invalid argument. Next.

Something possibly causing clang isn't an argument, otherwise all of SE goes out the window. Look at that, another invalid argument. I'm sensing a theme! Next.

Drag makes what worse? you didn't even make a full thought. Next.

Water plain doesn't exist above sea level? Making that statement and claiming it has meaning isn't an argument. Next.

So, in summary, you have No actual arguments against water, just another long-winded pointless post. Seeing as you have no actual argument despite going to so much effort, just another page of blah blah blah, I won't waste my time responding again, to yet another post with zero substance to it. It is simply wasting everyone's time.

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Doomed Person ●

> Water is well removed from your idea of what the focus of the game should be. The same could be said of planets. The same could be said of combat, yet you've brought it up multiple times. So, you've contradicted your own argument. Plenty of things in the game from cosmetics to safe zone to jump drives were for "a specific subset of the player base. So you're entire argument is invalid. Next.

We both know that the central focus is building spaceships, with some survival and exploration elements. This is apparent from several minutes of gameplay, or a brief examination of the official site.

Planets provide common design goals, as does (non-overly-complicated) combat. Landing, taking off, Hydro vs. Ion vs. Atmo, plus the difficulties of designing a durable and effective ship. This isn't hard to understand, but you automatically assumed that the same applied to it for no particular reason.

Safe zones allow trading stations to exist, which in turn sets up for more survival-oriented gameplay. This one should have been more obvious, since safe zones are the most visible commonality between each trade station and were introduced in the same update.

Jump drives are necessary because of the 100 m/s speed limit, the distance between planets, and practical travel time. Each element is individually necessary, so the Drives exist to prevent conflict. This is apparent to anyone who has ever attempted to travel to another planet.

The only thing that doesn't fit is cosmetics, which, considering that they're largely in DLCs, exist to keep the game funded.

I don't know how you managed to miss any of this, but apparently I have to spell everything out for you.

> Water doesn't necessitate any new blocks, if you had used the mod, you'd know that. Clearly you haven't. so again, you have no point and make yet another invalid argument. Next.

Again, simply denying without thinking.

First, you'd need a water tank to hold water. This one is incredibly blindingly obvious.

Second, you'd need a way to move around in water. For some reason, I doubt jet engines in the form of Atmos are going to cut it for a submarine, or even a regular ship.

Third, you'd need a way to take in water. If you felt lazy, you could awkwardly repurpose Connectors or Air Vents for this and risk the wrath of the fanbase.

Should I continue, or have I enunciated the consequences well enough for you?

> Underground operations

Yes, but it's both unrealistic and unnecessary complication, which is two strikes against it. Combine that with mandatory underground pressurization and the necessity of a water hangar-airlock for an underground base, and it falls comfortably under the realm of "an actual problem".

> Something possibly causing clang isn't an argument, otherwise all of SE goes out the window. Look at that, another invalid argument. I'm sensing a theme! Next.

Yes, but you still wouldn't approve of the addition of a rope block with a dozen stacked subgrids and hitboxes. Allowing some measure of clang is one thing, but inviting it to destroy a creation is another.

Think about drag for a little. Maybe think about ships moving vertically due to changes in weight, the changing drag forces based on what parts are in the water, and make your own conclusions that aren't suicidally optimistic.

> Water plain doesn't exist above sea level? Making that statement and claiming it has meaning isn't an argument. Next.

Fine. Water straight-up doesn't exist above sea level. Now that you can't handwave away one of the most important arguments with a turn of phrase, tell me exactly how well new players will rate this game if they find water magically disappearing upon liftoff.

It's impressive how you managed to avoid thinking about any of these issues at all apart from any possible way to deny their existence. In fact, you even managed to completely ignore this one:

>> Space Engineers already has problems and weak areas such as combat, story, progression, survival elements, and the everpresent Clang, all of which should have higher priority than overhauling the perfectly adequate Ice system.

Which, for some reason, went without comment even as you said that I had "No actual argument". Maybe because you can't just deny it like you did the others? It's interesting that you gave an excuse to avoid responding right before I had a chance to directly rebut each of your points and right after your chance to claim victory.

> Water is well removed from your idea of what the focus of the game should be. The same could be said of planets. The same could be said of combat, yet you've brought it up multiple times. So, you've contradicted your own argument. Plenty of things in the game from cosmetics to safe zone to jump drives were for "a specific subset of the player base. So you're entire argument is invalid. Next.

We both know that the central focus is building spaceships, with some survival and exploration elements. This is apparent from several minutes of gameplay, or a brief examination of the official site.

Planets provide common design goals, as does (non-overly-complicated) combat. Landing, taking off, Hydro vs. Ion vs. Atmo, plus the difficulties of designing a durable and effective ship. This isn't hard to understand, but you automatically assumed that the same applied to it for no particular reason.

Safe zones allow trading stations to exist, which in turn sets up for more survival-oriented gameplay. This one should have been more obvious, since safe zones are the most visible commonality between each trade station and were introduced in the same update.

Jump drives are necessary because of the 100 m/s speed limit, the distance between planets, and practical travel time. Each element is individually necessary, so the Drives exist to prevent conflict. This is apparent to anyone who has ever attempted to travel to another planet.

The only thing that doesn't fit is cosmetics, which, considering that they're largely in DLCs, exist to keep the game funded.

I don't know how you managed to miss any of this, but apparently I have to spell everything out for you.

> Water doesn't necessitate any new blocks, if you had used the mod, you'd know that. Clearly you haven't. so again, you have no point and make yet another invalid argument. Next.

Again, simply denying without thinking.

First, you'd need a water tank to hold water. This one is incredibly blindingly obvious.

Second, you'd need a way to move around in water. For some reason, I doubt jet engines in the form of Atmos are going to cut it for a submarine, or even a regular ship.

Third, you'd need a way to take in water. If you felt lazy, you could awkwardly repurpose Connectors or Air Vents for this and risk the wrath of the fanbase.

Should I continue, or have I enunciated the consequences well enough for you?

> Underground operations

Yes, but it's both unrealistic and unnecessary complication, which is two strikes against it. Combine that with mandatory underground pressurization and the necessity of a water hangar-airlock for an underground base, and it falls comfortably under the realm of "an actual problem".

> Something possibly causing clang isn't an argument, otherwise all of SE goes out the window. Look at that, another invalid argument. I'm sensing a theme! Next.

Yes, but you still wouldn't approve of the addition of a rope block with a dozen stacked subgrids and hitboxes. Allowing some measure of clang is one thing, but inviting it to destroy a creation is another.

Think about drag for a little. Maybe think about ships moving vertically due to changes in weight, the changing drag forces based on what parts are in the water, and make your own conclusions that aren't suicidally optimistic.

> Water plain doesn't exist above sea level? Making that statement and claiming it has meaning isn't an argument. Next.

Fine. Water straight-up doesn't exist above sea level. Now that you can't handwave away one of the most important arguments with a turn of phrase, tell me exactly how well new players will rate this game if they find water magically disappearing upon liftoff.

It's impressive how you managed to avoid thinking about any of these issues at all apart from any possible way to deny their existence. In fact, you even managed to completely ignore this one:

>> Space Engineers already has problems and weak areas such as combat, story, progression, survival elements, and the everpresent Clang, all of which should have higher priority than overhauling the perfectly adequate Ice system.

Which, for some reason, went without comment even as you said that I had "No actual argument". Maybe because you can't just deny it like you did the others? It's interesting that you gave an excuse to avoid responding right before I had a chance to directly rebut each of your points and right after your chance to claim victory.

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Pyxaron Dragon ●

I'm in favor of this one, the mod's impementation of it is pretty good already and would be simple to add to the actual game as a normal feature. It'd remove the weirdness of having water always be frozen no matter the climate.

Also, water landings to avoid hard crashes would be a very welcome addition to the game. It's used in reality already, why not in SE!

All that'd need to be fixed is a way to have a nicer transition from solid ground to water, and a way to make it so that pressurized spaces remain free from the water effects.

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Doomed Person ●

And yet you have no answers to the vast majority of the points I make. "Pretty good" is an interesting way of spelling "effective in roleplay and roleplay only".

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Pyxaron Dragon ●

I'm in favor of this one, the mod's impementation of it is pretty good already and would be simple to add to the actual game as a normal feature. It'd remove the weirdness of having water always be frozen no matter the climate.

Also, water landings to avoid hard crashes would be a very welcome addition to the game. It's used in reality already, why not in SE!

All that'd need to be fixed is a way to have a nicer transition from solid ground to water, and a way to make it so that pressurized spaces remain free from the water effects.

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