Instead of the progression tree...
tl;dr: Instead of this progression, why not give the engineer a solar-powered suit with a built-in 3D printer as the tier zero?
Long version:
My experience with the progression: Several times I grinded down a block and accidentally the one behind it -- due to lag. Once the second block was the lifepod battery... I cannot weld the minimally damaged battery because I have not unlocked it yet... Now my Survival Kit is unpowered, my suit runs out of power, I cannot build anything, and the lifepod will despawn because it is unpowered...
Okay, I panic and start looking for the battery blueprint. How do I even find anything in the progression tree? Several of the dependencies make no sense. I tried using the search bar but that only works for unlocked blueprints.
In short, "I need blueprint X, how do I unlock it" without having to go through each line and hovering over each icon? Nobody's got time for that, I am busy dying. Currently the Progression tab only answers the opposite question, "If I build X, what dozen things will it unlock?" That's not what I need to know... Anyway, that was frustrating, I decided to press Delete and restart the game.
Using stone to get simple base ores is a good idea. And I agree that it's best for beginners to expose them to blueprints step by step. But that doesn't mean that you have to lock blueprints for everyone. Could you not keep everything unlocked, and add a small Show All button for advanced players, and by default hide confusing blueprints for beginners (windows and interior walls and what-not)?
In the playtest, when someone joined a MP faction, they simply pointed the newcomer to a corner and said, "grind this and this and weld it". So everyone but the first player simply skipped the progression. It was just a nuisance to avoid, it wasn't part of gameplay. (Also in MP, when I grinded something and welded it, I got the message "<someone else> unlocked x for you", huh? I thought I unlock it for myself? I didn't understand that.)
Part of the problem is the subject matter, it's simply non-trivial to break down "rocket science" into a smoothly playable progression. In contrast to, say, Minecraft, where, even if you have lost everything, you have a chance to work your way up again with a stick and a stone, and it's exciting. In space, you cannot lapse back into a stick-and-stone-age and work yourself up again, you're simply dead.
What would I prefer? For example, in Astroneer, they solve this issue by letting the spacesuit be able to produce basic tools and a small 3D printer from "stone", which prints a medium 3D printer, which prints a large 3D printer, and you can unlock blueprints in any order (only limited by costs). I'm not saying, blindly copy Astroneer, but think about it: It would be great if a space engineer suit had a minimal solar panel, and could print me a basic rifle and tools, and could print fragile plastic versions of basic components, that last barely long enough "to fly me to the next asteroid". And then this flying nutshell falls apart, and I need to drill and produce more parts, until I can afford to build a flimsy survival kit, and then use that to build good replacement parts and fix it up, and then I can use the fixed Survival kit to build the basic refinery, assembler, etc.
And if there's ever a total failure later, I can also use these crappy 3D-printed parts again to bridge the gap -- say our cruiser is falling apart in a pirate attack and I am welding the reactor back together and I save the day with a temp part long enough for us to jump away before it fails again, at least now we have bought time to fix it, etc. ... :)
Also, more than one option for any thing would be great in the long run. You already have the "arc furnace versus refinery" choice, that's a good one. Give us more of that (different armour, different weights, different speeds, different fuels, different power sources, different weapons, different ammo, different sources of oxygen), and let us unlock them at our own pace. Then bases will end up looking different and have different strengths and weaknesses, because the players happened to make different choices. Or when two factions meet, the "thermal-powered faction" will want to lure the "solar-powered faction" into the dark underground, and they need to work around that, etc. ...
I like this feedback
I, too, don't like the new progression tree, as it is simply a nuisance for experienced players and adds nothing of value to the game. I however don't think that a 3D printer in your pocket is the way to go. Worst case you can always respawn.
One of the best progression trees I have ever seen in a game was probably Minecraft. And for those who now say "Wait, Minecraft doesn't even have a progression!": it actually does, but it is so smoothly integrated into the game, that you don't even notice it. Punch a tree for a wooden pickaxe to get some stone for a stone pickaxe to mine iron to get an iron pickaxe to mine diamonds to get a diamond pickaxe. That is standard progression but it feels so natural that you don't even think about it.
I wish Space Engineers had decided for a similar way of progression instead of slapping the player with a "you can't do that yet, Dave" brick wall. So basically limit the player only by the resources he has available, and gate new blocks and items only by those and the machinery you can build. I.E.:
Tier 0: Survival kit allows you to process stone into basic materials, which allows you to build basic blocks.
Tier 1: Basic Refinery and Assembler allow you to process basic ores (iron, silicon, nickel), but you are limited to planetary blocks like atmospheric thrusters and wheels, because you cannot process the necessary resources for other things, yet. Basic Refinery/Assembler can be built on small grids.
Tier 2: Standard Refinery and Assembler allow you to process intermediate ores as well (cobalt, uranium, silver). You can now build blocks and engines for space travel (hydrogen thrusters, hydrogen tank, oxygen farm, ...). Standard Refinery/Assembler required a large grid.
Tier 3: Advanced Refinery and Assembler allow you to process all ores and build all blocks, but those ores are very rare, making blocks like ion engines very valuable.
This way you had basically the same progression tree, but it doesn't feel like you are running against a brick wall, it smoothly integrates into gameplay. You also have a vehicle progression (immobile->mobile->space->space without having to farm ice) which is probably like most people would like to play the game. This would also make it much easier for new players to get into the game, because at first you have only very few blocks you can build, and it increases in small steps so you have time to learn about the new blocks of each tier.
I, too, don't like the new progression tree, as it is simply a nuisance for experienced players and adds nothing of value to the game. I however don't think that a 3D printer in your pocket is the way to go. Worst case you can always respawn.
One of the best progression trees I have ever seen in a game was probably Minecraft. And for those who now say "Wait, Minecraft doesn't even have a progression!": it actually does, but it is so smoothly integrated into the game, that you don't even notice it. Punch a tree for a wooden pickaxe to get some stone for a stone pickaxe to mine iron to get an iron pickaxe to mine diamonds to get a diamond pickaxe. That is standard progression but it feels so natural that you don't even think about it.
I wish Space Engineers had decided for a similar way of progression instead of slapping the player with a "you can't do that yet, Dave" brick wall. So basically limit the player only by the resources he has available, and gate new blocks and items only by those and the machinery you can build. I.E.:
Tier 0: Survival kit allows you to process stone into basic materials, which allows you to build basic blocks.
Tier 1: Basic Refinery and Assembler allow you to process basic ores (iron, silicon, nickel), but you are limited to planetary blocks like atmospheric thrusters and wheels, because you cannot process the necessary resources for other things, yet. Basic Refinery/Assembler can be built on small grids.
Tier 2: Standard Refinery and Assembler allow you to process intermediate ores as well (cobalt, uranium, silver). You can now build blocks and engines for space travel (hydrogen thrusters, hydrogen tank, oxygen farm, ...). Standard Refinery/Assembler required a large grid.
Tier 3: Advanced Refinery and Assembler allow you to process all ores and build all blocks, but those ores are very rare, making blocks like ion engines very valuable.
This way you had basically the same progression tree, but it doesn't feel like you are running against a brick wall, it smoothly integrates into gameplay. You also have a vehicle progression (immobile->mobile->space->space without having to farm ice) which is probably like most people would like to play the game. This would also make it much easier for new players to get into the game, because at first you have only very few blocks you can build, and it increases in small steps so you have time to learn about the new blocks of each tier.
To lazy to read the whole post, but I agree that the "progression" system is hardly a "progression" system and more like an "annoying and adds nothing new to the game" system.
To lazy to read the whole post, but I agree that the "progression" system is hardly a "progression" system and more like an "annoying and adds nothing new to the game" system.
The progression system can be deleted. The way blocks and component requirements work without the tree is a progression system of its own. You must start with just the survival kit for construction. You have to build a basic assember to make grids and large tubes, for like a small container. You have to build a basic refinery before you can make grids because the survival kit wont make cobalt. Them you have to make a full sized refinery before you can build a med bay, or a second survival kit.
Its works much better with the progression system off.
The progression system can be deleted. The way blocks and component requirements work without the tree is a progression system of its own. You must start with just the survival kit for construction. You have to build a basic assember to make grids and large tubes, for like a small container. You have to build a basic refinery before you can make grids because the survival kit wont make cobalt. Them you have to make a full sized refinery before you can build a med bay, or a second survival kit.
Its works much better with the progression system off.
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