Gravity Drives absolutly need a balance pass
The disparity between ships with gravity drives vs those without on the vanilla servers now that event controllers allow you to used WASD to control them has become horrendous. its gotten to the point where you either join everyone, abandoning standard thrusters and build a gravity based ship, or get used to losing every single fight to ships that are millions of kg, built entirely out of heavy armor blocks and yet can still accelerate to max speed in fractions of a second allowing them to dodge volley after volley of artillery shells because the turrets simply cant track them well enough.
Please PLEASE for the balance of pvp and to stop this arms race of NEEDING a gravity drive powered ship to stand a chance to even defende yourself, either remove mass blocks entirely or make it so gravity generators can no longer affect mass blocks on the same grid.
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I say the exact opposite, normal thrusters are boring and slow and force you to make squishy light thin armored useless ships. Create more dedicated gravity drive blocks, with less PCU, so its easier to make gravity drive ships. Also we need non Prototech, larger gyros and gravity generators with multiple attachment points. And stronger mass blocks.
2x2x2 would be a perfect size for all 3, no proto components, just normal engineer tech.
You may be upset after geting destroyed by a couple of grav drive ships, but they are very much fun and take a lot of skill to build and operate. It is a science and an art.
I say optimise it so it runs more server friendly and make it so everybody can use them.
If not, than nerf weapons so they are not as destructive towards thinly armored squishy light ships.
I say the exact opposite, normal thrusters are boring and slow and force you to make squishy light thin armored useless ships. Create more dedicated gravity drive blocks, with less PCU, so its easier to make gravity drive ships. Also we need non Prototech, larger gyros and gravity generators with multiple attachment points. And stronger mass blocks.
2x2x2 would be a perfect size for all 3, no proto components, just normal engineer tech.
You may be upset after geting destroyed by a couple of grav drive ships, but they are very much fun and take a lot of skill to build and operate. It is a science and an art.
I say optimise it so it runs more server friendly and make it so everybody can use them.
If not, than nerf weapons so they are not as destructive towards thinly armored squishy light ships.
I mean, i understand your frustration, im sure the germans in ww1 were not stoked when tanks rolled over them. but thats life. Keen is trying to be faithful to what we see in the world around us. Fact of the matter is, for front line military ships, there probably WONT ever be purley thruster based ships, because anyone using gravity drive would tear it to shreds. Its not cheap, real gravity drives distort time so the pilot would have an eternity to respond to any action you make.
i dont know if there is a real life counter to gravity drives, but if there was, that is the route Keen would take in balancing them.
i dont have a solution for jump drives though. i think that HAS to be a gameplay thing because we cant affect time like the real gravity drive craft, or maybe keen knows somehting we dont
are there not servers that feel the way you do any dont allow gravity drive?
I mean, i understand your frustration, im sure the germans in ww1 were not stoked when tanks rolled over them. but thats life. Keen is trying to be faithful to what we see in the world around us. Fact of the matter is, for front line military ships, there probably WONT ever be purley thruster based ships, because anyone using gravity drive would tear it to shreds. Its not cheap, real gravity drives distort time so the pilot would have an eternity to respond to any action you make.
i dont know if there is a real life counter to gravity drives, but if there was, that is the route Keen would take in balancing them.
i dont have a solution for jump drives though. i think that HAS to be a gameplay thing because we cant affect time like the real gravity drive craft, or maybe keen knows somehting we dont
are there not servers that feel the way you do any dont allow gravity drive?
We have this brand new prototech thruster meant to he used for larger ships and more efficient thrust and not one person I've spoken to will be using it simply because the gravity drive exists in the game. It takes up roughly the same amount of block space and gives you BETTER acceleration in ALL directions vs just 1. The prototech thruster was made irrelevant immediately.
I have 4 ships that use a gravity drive of some sort. Either bi directional just for acceleration or fully functioning with event controllers allowing me to control them via WASD.
3 million kg ships outmanuever small grid fighters because they simply can't accelerate the same pace. This is terrible game balance.
We have this brand new prototech thruster meant to he used for larger ships and more efficient thrust and not one person I've spoken to will be using it simply because the gravity drive exists in the game. It takes up roughly the same amount of block space and gives you BETTER acceleration in ALL directions vs just 1. The prototech thruster was made irrelevant immediately.
I have 4 ships that use a gravity drive of some sort. Either bi directional just for acceleration or fully functioning with event controllers allowing me to control them via WASD.
3 million kg ships outmanuever small grid fighters because they simply can't accelerate the same pace. This is terrible game balance.
Costs in space engineers are a non factor. Resources are effectively unlimited and your only bottleneck is yourself. My faction on official servers can pump put multiple 18k pcu ships equipped with full grav drives and barely dent our resources.
The reason I don't play on non official is a twofold answer. 1. Official doesn't allow scripts amd other mods. When looking for a server that doesn't allow things like grav drives you tend to get players adding other mods as well such as weapon core for example. I don't want to play with mods or scripts. 2. Player count. Official servers have one of the highest player retention of all the servers and there's always somthing to do for vanilla focused players.
And to answer your last question, I would counter it in real life by NOT ALLOWING THE MASS BLOCK TO BE EFFECTED BY GRAV BLOCKS ON ITS OWN GRID. ya know, like the same reason you can't pull yourself along using 2 magnets for infinite energy? Physics?
Sure the jump drive doesn't exactly follow real physics but it's a necessary thing to traverse in the game and no one's complaining about it being imbalanced.
Costs in space engineers are a non factor. Resources are effectively unlimited and your only bottleneck is yourself. My faction on official servers can pump put multiple 18k pcu ships equipped with full grav drives and barely dent our resources.
The reason I don't play on non official is a twofold answer. 1. Official doesn't allow scripts amd other mods. When looking for a server that doesn't allow things like grav drives you tend to get players adding other mods as well such as weapon core for example. I don't want to play with mods or scripts. 2. Player count. Official servers have one of the highest player retention of all the servers and there's always somthing to do for vanilla focused players.
And to answer your last question, I would counter it in real life by NOT ALLOWING THE MASS BLOCK TO BE EFFECTED BY GRAV BLOCKS ON ITS OWN GRID. ya know, like the same reason you can't pull yourself along using 2 magnets for infinite energy? Physics?
Sure the jump drive doesn't exactly follow real physics but it's a necessary thing to traverse in the game and no one's complaining about it being imbalanced.
No but it's a start. Now you have problems with the whole system Bing a subgrid and has to be attached manually, probably isn't as securely fastened to the interior of the ship and if that rotor is damaged in some way the entire system could fail. It becomes more hassle than its worth and brings standard thrust back up in value again. Maybe even will make people look at the prototech thrusters because right now they are worthless except for proto scrap.
No but it's a start. Now you have problems with the whole system Bing a subgrid and has to be attached manually, probably isn't as securely fastened to the interior of the ship and if that rotor is damaged in some way the entire system could fail. It becomes more hassle than its worth and brings standard thrust back up in value again. Maybe even will make people look at the prototech thrusters because right now they are worthless except for proto scrap.
Let me preface this by saying that there is no doubt Grav Drives (GD) are overpowering in combat, especially in experienced hands, and allow a pilot to outrun missiles/torps and can maneuver with the dexterity of a small grid while having 3 layers of heavy armor. the radical change in direction and acceleration allow ships to stay at optimal range while actively dodging enemy volleys with relative ease. Any ship with a GD has an immediate advantage over one that does not, if all other variables are even.
But rarely are all variables even, different designs, weapon choices, fleet numbers, pilot skill, locations such as moon or planets, and the ever present drop of luck can swing fights. I imagine there are plenty of people who make mistakes, take bad fights, stay in fights too long or get outclassed or outnumbered and yell "Grav Drives are broken!!"
If we were to assume a equalization across all the numerous variables and the only difference is propulsion system, then you cant claim they are broken just merely the final tier of ship. You have a choice to make a ship with one, at any time. To actively choose not to due to nostalgia or believing they are exploitative , and ignore current PvP meta, is asinine. The combination of GD and alot of rails, arti turrets with high yield custom missiles IS the top tier meta fitting for a warship. GD's have been in game for a good while now, and even with event controllers, arent the easiest to build into a cohesive, effective warship. Theres a skill gap to reach that tier. I play with the OP and know full well he is fully capable of designing a terrifying meta ship, so thats not my implication. What is boring and unbalanced is that its those 3 things always at end game fights: GD, Rails, Nukes and a ton of jumping/kiting.
I propose a few ideas that might bring other designs into viability:
1. Increase Mass Block/Gen PCU - in the end any change to this is gotten around with faction mates or the alternate accounts that nobody is supposed to have.
2. Nerf max force acceleration by a sizable percentage - 20-30% off the usable power of gens could give us that Goldi Locks zone of PCU/Power/Size/Acceleration that would bring other builds closer to being able to contend.
3. Increase Power Consumption - Cranking up power consumption by multiple factors could also be used to rein in abuse of GDs
4. Railgun Incompatability - The ultimate combo of long range and the ability to stay at range should be broken up. Making it so they cannot be used together, would immediately force a pilot to decide whether damage or speed/mobility is priority (though the idea of GD bricks with Rocket Pods is also terrifying)
5.Decrease "Fall speed" - terminal velocity shouldn't be higher than what huge thrusters can push you to. taking the fall speed to 90m/s gets rid of GDs top end advantage but keeps acceleration. No more out running missiles, and you can eventually be chased down by thrusters.
In the end I want GDs to stay, but I want to see a greater variety of ship designs and ideas at the top tier end game. Like OP said, as of now, no reason to build thrusters outside of redundancy/form. Theres also no reason to build, rockets, assault cannons, gatling turrets (CTC better) or interiors. The GDs are having their cake and eating it too, either nerf the acceleration potential, top speed, PCU or Power, because they shouldn't have it all.
Let me preface this by saying that there is no doubt Grav Drives (GD) are overpowering in combat, especially in experienced hands, and allow a pilot to outrun missiles/torps and can maneuver with the dexterity of a small grid while having 3 layers of heavy armor. the radical change in direction and acceleration allow ships to stay at optimal range while actively dodging enemy volleys with relative ease. Any ship with a GD has an immediate advantage over one that does not, if all other variables are even.
But rarely are all variables even, different designs, weapon choices, fleet numbers, pilot skill, locations such as moon or planets, and the ever present drop of luck can swing fights. I imagine there are plenty of people who make mistakes, take bad fights, stay in fights too long or get outclassed or outnumbered and yell "Grav Drives are broken!!"
If we were to assume a equalization across all the numerous variables and the only difference is propulsion system, then you cant claim they are broken just merely the final tier of ship. You have a choice to make a ship with one, at any time. To actively choose not to due to nostalgia or believing they are exploitative , and ignore current PvP meta, is asinine. The combination of GD and alot of rails, arti turrets with high yield custom missiles IS the top tier meta fitting for a warship. GD's have been in game for a good while now, and even with event controllers, arent the easiest to build into a cohesive, effective warship. Theres a skill gap to reach that tier. I play with the OP and know full well he is fully capable of designing a terrifying meta ship, so thats not my implication. What is boring and unbalanced is that its those 3 things always at end game fights: GD, Rails, Nukes and a ton of jumping/kiting.
I propose a few ideas that might bring other designs into viability:
1. Increase Mass Block/Gen PCU - in the end any change to this is gotten around with faction mates or the alternate accounts that nobody is supposed to have.
2. Nerf max force acceleration by a sizable percentage - 20-30% off the usable power of gens could give us that Goldi Locks zone of PCU/Power/Size/Acceleration that would bring other builds closer to being able to contend.
3. Increase Power Consumption - Cranking up power consumption by multiple factors could also be used to rein in abuse of GDs
4. Railgun Incompatability - The ultimate combo of long range and the ability to stay at range should be broken up. Making it so they cannot be used together, would immediately force a pilot to decide whether damage or speed/mobility is priority (though the idea of GD bricks with Rocket Pods is also terrifying)
5.Decrease "Fall speed" - terminal velocity shouldn't be higher than what huge thrusters can push you to. taking the fall speed to 90m/s gets rid of GDs top end advantage but keeps acceleration. No more out running missiles, and you can eventually be chased down by thrusters.
In the end I want GDs to stay, but I want to see a greater variety of ship designs and ideas at the top tier end game. Like OP said, as of now, no reason to build thrusters outside of redundancy/form. Theres also no reason to build, rockets, assault cannons, gatling turrets (CTC better) or interiors. The GDs are having their cake and eating it too, either nerf the acceleration potential, top speed, PCU or Power, because they shouldn't have it all.
Cmon guys, the point of the game is to have fun. People using grav drives are having fun, so back off and let us have fun.
Cmon guys, the point of the game is to have fun. People using grav drives are having fun, so back off and let us have fun.
theres no way to balance it. gravity drives, as their name say, use gravity to move. u cant nerf physics.
theres no way to balance it. gravity drives, as their name say, use gravity to move. u cant nerf physics.
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