Small-grid Warhead reblance (Signal update) #MWGA

GwaiLOL shared this feedback 2 months ago
Under Consideration

INTRODUCTION

The current smallgrid warhead carries little advantage when used in conjunction with AI blocks vs. the PCU cost of other weapons.

Since the "signal update," Keen added the "Temporary container" solution to improve the server performance and indirectly removed the community workaround solution for player-made missiles (or Nukes).

This directly impacts player-ship design choice and removes the rock-paper-scissor element in combat, forcing an old, boring meta that trumps creativity to resurface.


Hence, it is essential to rebalance this for the community for ship diversity.


I am not saying we should bring back "Nukes", but to make warheads great again!! #MWGA

Because, realistically saying, the small grid warheads were never practical after 2019.


The only combat case that works is YouTubers firing small grid missiles on a static target with maybe two turrets.


I also need to point out the imbalance of both warhead variants:


  1. Large grid and small grid warheads cost the same PCU.
  2. A Small-grid warhead requires 2 explosives, and a Large-grid warhead requires 6 explosives.
  3. Small-grid warhead ( 2 explosives ) disintegrates small blocks in 5 metres diameter and barely deforms one layer of large-grid light armour.
  4. The large-grid warhead ( 6 explosives ) disintegrates large-grid blocks of any size within a 30-metre diameter and will crack through and damage half a dozen layers.
  5. Regarding block space comparison, if we stack Small-grid warheads in a 2.5m^3 space(5x5x5), it is equivalent to a 1x1x1 large-grid space. The Large-grid warhead (50 PCU, 6 explosives) will still do more damage than the 5x5x5 small-grid warhead (6250PCU, 250 explosives).

NON-STATIC GRID PVP ENVIRONMENT

In a real battle scenario, when a warhead missile detonates, the first drawback is damage mechanics in multiplayer; if the target is moving at a relatively high speed, the explosive damage range is already short, and by the time the explosion is registered, the actual damage is even further away from the target, making small-grid missiles useless and 0 chance against a large grid.


REBALANCE PROPOSAL


  1. Keep the max explosion range.
  2. Increase the damage power to at least 1/3 of the large grid warhead (match the explosive quantity) or allow small-grid explosion damage to stack. (I think it is fair interms of PCU cost)
  3. Increase the damage range or allow small-grid warhead explosion range to stack.(I think it is fair interms of PCU cost)

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I will leave the rest of the comments to the community below:

Replies (10)

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i would also suggest to either do this or leave warheads like they are right now and make the temporary containers explode relative to the explosive force of the material that is in them because currently if you pack lets say 1000 rifle magazines in a container temp container and let it explode, the damage output will be around 100x less than it would be with rifle magazines outside of the container leading to literally 0 damage unless you pack 100 times more magazines to match the desired output which is inefficient, or simply buff the warheads as well as the temporary container explosions

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2

One more thing to consider when rebalancing warheads, make large warheads have around 100 meters danger radius where the closer the explosion is to the target the more damage it obviously does with the max damage being around 1 layer of heavy armor with a possibility of improving the damage by stacking warheads as said in the post while small warheads will maybe have a 50 meters maximum radius with a top damage of around 0.25 heavy armor layers, stackable as well

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Sounds a bit like too much power for a warhead but if it costed more mats that would work.

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3

It is not the temp containers that is causing the problem. You now need 31 times more volume of exploding ammo as you did before the update, that is the problem. This requires a small grid large cargo completely full and that makes WMD missiles useless against all but stationary, unarmed targets. So only slow noobs will get nuked now. 31 times more mass for the payload, you will then need more thrust and plumbing for those thrusters (way more mass) and fuel and now the missile is freak'n huge and can't be printed easily and will be shot down before ever reaching an armed target. So only unarmed noobs will get nuked now. Way to protect the big guys while stepping on the little guys.

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2

Correction to my post above:



  1. Small-grid warheads = 50pcu. Large=grid warheads =100pcu

  2. Temp containers are not directly nerfing nukes but indirectly, and the new workaround is even more ridiculous.
    Anyways, the main point of this post is warheads.

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i Know its not the temp containers btw Engi, pretty much everyone does i think but since they are just so problematic i think it would be a good idea to just make a nuke substitute which is easier to understand by introducing the warhead buff

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5

#bringbacknukes


This update neutered the PVP community. Was excited for update, won’t be buying it now. Nerfing all WMD tech was a stupid move. We had nuclear treaties, engaging RP gameplay which most of the PVP community lacks, high tech missiles for airburst and impact detonation, HUNDREDS of hours of development… gone. And why? Cuz people cry. Now, the only ones that’ll get nuked will be players that don’t deserve it. Congrats keen, you successfully made it so your AI update is pointless due to the fact that AI missiles are shit without nuke tech. Can’t stress enough how annoying it is. You are encouraging all players to make Railgun bricks as railguns are now (still) the ONLY effective weapon in the game. Not happy about the changes.

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You can't buy the update, it's already on.

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3

Let me re-phrase that, I won’t be buying any more DLCS. Happy?

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3

I can just run into someone's base with 10k ammo and shoot it for the same effect. band aid lazy solution. I have managed to crash the servers constantly by spawning temp containers too so it doesn't seem to do anything but TARGET NERF WMD. When you guys reward Alt abuse and punish REAL ENGINEERING is where I get off I'm afraid.

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> REBALANCE PROPOSAL

Perhaps add damage types variety? Like 'shrapnel' warheads (a shitty thing to do in space, but still) that has much bigger range but are a lot weaker. And 'shaped' warheads that are at least somewhat directed.

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Something like that, but maybe just make a new variant that’s like a nuke and costs a lot of stuff could work.

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2

adding more things in the game to fix the thing they broke. seems like a legit strat in this low pop abandonware game...

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4

Until nukes get put back in the game and certain peoples flaps remain closed, I am done with the game.

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4

"Nukes" or "WMDs" were awesome. One of those very late game things for players to figure out and learn after mastering the game. Similar to "gravity drives" and such.


Without them its absolutely true that the small grid warhead is totally underpowered to the level they are useless.


Torpedoes are a great game feature and another of those late game building challenges for players. Keen specifically introduced the small small-grid merge block to better allow for these torpedoes and then the A.I. with "Intercept", "Target prediction" and "collision avoidance override" all for torpedo use.


I'll be the first to admit the maximum ammo clip damage and range from 10,000 clips of ammo was seriously overpowered, even if the engineering to create such things was incredibly high. The blasts from the 2,500 clips in the small cargo containers were much closer to balance. But all this was engineered by teams of people (spending hundreds of hours on it) because small grid warheads are practically useless. The deep knowledge of the game and mechanics that went into creating those "nuke" torpedoes were nothing short of phenomenal and a testimate to some of the creativity Keen wants to encourage.


Small grid arms producing less damage against large grid is understandable, but small grid warheads should be exempt from this and the warhead itself should have MUCH more power, in line with its 2 explosive components that are 1/3 that of large grid warheads.


I'm not sure on the code with regards to having variable components, but the only other suggestion I would make is a sliding scale in the warhead control for how many explosive components form the warhead.


Whatever the case SOMETHING must be done to make torpedoes worth a damn.

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4

Items with explosive properties should maintain a significant blast radius when stacked, be it ammo or explosives proper, with an increased blast effect as the quantity increases. It would be logical to rebalance these items in favor of explosives since, by design, they lack projectiles and should contain a higher density of explosive material.

The explosion mechanics for these stacked items should be adjusted so that the damage dealt is inversely proportional to the distance from the blast origin. This change would prevent the current behavior where any blocks within the blast radius are completely destroyed regardless of their integrity properties.

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4

I would love if warheads were rebalanced like the OP has outlined. While large grid torpedo was and still is a menace - even without "nuke" payload... the small grid torps are really almost useless without additional payload.

Please make small grid warheads worthwhile, it really is a small code change in terms of blast parameters.

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3

Voted.

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2

Quick, someone make an alt to get the 50th vote. Since Alt accounting is rewarded.

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2

Voted XD 😆

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