x5 Cockpit strength

Deon Beauchamp ●

In your experience, how long does a small grid fighter(under 140 block) last in close combat?

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captainbladej52 ●

Simply put the health of the small grid cockpits especially and even the large grid ones are rather... well poo to put it bluntly. I was able to get my cockpits to be alot stronger through a few means I will explain below.

As part of my era mod I increased the durability of quite a few blocks through sticking a damage multiplier on certain blocks, using components that grant more health/durability to a block, and sometimes both depending. As part of my era mod I have 3 additional armor types beyond the standard vanilla. Duramax Light, Duramax Medium and the original Duramax aka Duramax Heavy armors. Their strengths are 7x vanilla light armor, 7x vanilla heavy armor, and 11x vanilla heavy armor but with extra weight. To make the armors work I created custom variants of the steel plate and metal grids that are the Duramax Light Plate, Duramax Plate, and then Duramax Light Grid and Duramax Grid. The light components being used by the Duramax Light and Medium armors, and the heavier components used by the Duramax Heavy armor. Now I do have a couple more components for other blocks depending on need, such as a radiation shield plate for reactors, Duramax glass for cockpits and such, but the armor ones are the most used ones. Now depending on what kind of durability I want, I can mix and match the components to get some extra health, such as say Duramax Grids but using Duramax Light plates so I get a middle ground on health. Then I can add a damage multiplier on top if I need.

To balance the components I require a special Duron ore to produce them. Assuming the base era mod only and not the companion planetary ore map, the Duron ore can only be acquired from asteroids or purchased. The ore also requires a special refinery to process and there is a basic Era Refinery and a full sized Advanced Era Refinery. Also takes a decent amount of time to process it all down. They also process the Xabrium fuel used by my reactors Then there is a Xabrium Converter to go between the energized and depleted variants, but that's another discussion. The custom components largely keep their vanilla requirements but have an amount of Duron Ingots added on top of the original costs. Because I didn't think I had enough custom stuff to warrant a custom assembler yet, I made the components buildable on the vanilla full sized assembler.

To get my cockpits to last longer I replaced the steel plates, metal grids, and the glass with my Duron infused variants. Duramax Light plates, Duramax Light Grids (when applicable) and especially replaced the glass with Duramax Glass. Far as the lore went I wrote as discovering an ore that's durable enough on its own, but works even better when made into an alloy with other stuff. From there I also have a damage multiplier to further refine the durability. The damage multiplier in combination with the custom components allows me to add the extra health and fine tweak the durability already present without having to spam a bunch of extra components and make a block super heavy compared to now.

Once the cockpit durability is established, it's up to my mod's users to build a fighter around the cockpit and go from there. For my own fighters if I can stay ahead of the guns for the most part, the cockpits will tank a good few hits before they finally go poof. They can die and they're not invincible, but I much prefer my cockpits to standard vanilla.

Overall that's how I did it was a combination of better components and damage multipliers. I can give better specifics if desired but that's how I fixed that issue for myself anyways, and how I personally would recommend it to Keen if they were to make better cockpits.

EDIT: if there were to be an upgrade system, this is one area it's definitely needed as you could replace component A with a more durable component B and "research" a more advanced version.

Simply put the health of the small grid cockpits especially and even the large grid ones are rather... well poo to put it bluntly. I was able to get my cockpits to be alot stronger through a few means I will explain below.

As part of my era mod I increased the durability of quite a few blocks through sticking a damage multiplier on certain blocks, using components that grant more health/durability to a block, and sometimes both depending. As part of my era mod I have 3 additional armor types beyond the standard vanilla. Duramax Light, Duramax Medium and the original Duramax aka Duramax Heavy armors. Their strengths are 7x vanilla light armor, 7x vanilla heavy armor, and 11x vanilla heavy armor but with extra weight. To make the armors work I created custom variants of the steel plate and metal grids that are the Duramax Light Plate, Duramax Plate, and then Duramax Light Grid and Duramax Grid. The light components being used by the Duramax Light and Medium armors, and the heavier components used by the Duramax Heavy armor. Now I do have a couple more components for other blocks depending on need, such as a radiation shield plate for reactors, Duramax glass for cockpits and such, but the armor ones are the most used ones. Now depending on what kind of durability I want, I can mix and match the components to get some extra health, such as say Duramax Grids but using Duramax Light plates so I get a middle ground on health. Then I can add a damage multiplier on top if I need.

To balance the components I require a special Duron ore to produce them. Assuming the base era mod only and not the companion planetary ore map, the Duron ore can only be acquired from asteroids or purchased. The ore also requires a special refinery to process and there is a basic Era Refinery and a full sized Advanced Era Refinery. Also takes a decent amount of time to process it all down. They also process the Xabrium fuel used by my reactors Then there is a Xabrium Converter to go between the energized and depleted variants, but that's another discussion. The custom components largely keep their vanilla requirements but have an amount of Duron Ingots added on top of the original costs. Because I didn't think I had enough custom stuff to warrant a custom assembler yet, I made the components buildable on the vanilla full sized assembler.

To get my cockpits to last longer I replaced the steel plates, metal grids, and the glass with my Duron infused variants. Duramax Light plates, Duramax Light Grids (when applicable) and especially replaced the glass with Duramax Glass. Far as the lore went I wrote as discovering an ore that's durable enough on its own, but works even better when made into an alloy with other stuff. From there I also have a damage multiplier to further refine the durability. The damage multiplier in combination with the custom components allows me to add the extra health and fine tweak the durability already present without having to spam a bunch of extra components and make a block super heavy compared to now.

Once the cockpit durability is established, it's up to my mod's users to build a fighter around the cockpit and go from there. For my own fighters if I can stay ahead of the guns for the most part, the cockpits will tank a good few hits before they finally go poof. They can die and they're not invincible, but I much prefer my cockpits to standard vanilla.

Overall that's how I did it was a combination of better components and damage multipliers. I can give better specifics if desired but that's how I fixed that issue for myself anyways, and how I personally would recommend it to Keen if they were to make better cockpits.

EDIT: if there were to be an upgrade system, this is one area it's definitely needed as you could replace component A with a more durable component B and "research" a more advanced version.

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Ammorok ●

Yeah! No more one shot ejections in to space after getting hit in the face.

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Warlord ●

It kind of doesn't matter if the cockpit is 5x stronger if the rest of your ship is in little pieces....

The issue isn't the strength of the cockpit but how well gatling turrets perform vs little ships.

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Deon Beauchamp ●

In terms of game play experience, which is better?

1,2,3.....ping

or

1 thruster, 1 gyro, 1 reactor and.....and.....i can make it back.

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captainbladej52 ●

It's both actually. For the size of the cockpits the vanilla cockpit durability is absolute poo. also doesn't help that the vanilla light armor is tissue paper with the heavy armor not being that much better in alot of instances. If the goal is to allow smaller ships like fighters some better survival, you need to look at durability of their armor and their cockpits. This doesn't mean we can't look at turrets as well, but the cockpits definitely need to be better. Alot of fighter builds fail because the turrets love to focus the cockpit down and if they get 2 or 3 hits, even glancing blows, it forces the pilot out and then the rest of the grid is toast even if the pilot was doing good to that point.

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Tael ●

I am not sure what you're expecting from a fighter, and I don't have a ton of them myself (I favor gunships in small-grid) but at less than 140 blocks you're looking at half the block-count on my smallest.

In general fighters don't punch up all that well if you aren't playing creative (or with sizeable multipliers) because of endurance issues, and their low durability makes combat in one so unforgiving that most people don't last long enough to learn from their mistakes. If you'd like help with design, strategy, or SE-fighter-maneuvers then I'd be willing to help you there, but cockpit-buffs aren't going to fix anything.

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Deon Beauchamp ●

So people will build small fighters with a lot redundancy in mind just for the sake of endurance. There is no redundancy in closed cockpits. Layers of glazing is an option, but the ships just keeps get bigger, heavier, less agile, need more power and so on. This could be a weapon power issue, or an armour defence issue and then it effects other play styles and ship builds that no one wants. Ending up with the conclusion that small builds are not compatible with attacking larger vessels unless there are many small ships and they are on auto-pilot, depriving the player of the David and Goliath experience. x5 cockpits do not give you much more of chance, but it is a better one than has been and does not change much else.

I appreciate the offer, alas my poor vision and mid hand eye co-ordination are things I live with, though I would not miss any battle with yourself and the other tacticians here. I hope that players will make more streams of epic SE fighter interactions and that the encounters are long enough to enjoy.....ping.

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Tael ●

Nothing an old blind space-engineer hasn't already compensated for with a bit of know-how :)

First thing's first: Tactical knowledge

-Turrets try to lead their targets, but Keen hasn't made them smart enough to lead a target moving along a curved path. Fly in a corkscrew path when maneuvering, and do barrel-rolls while holding your up-thrust when keeping range, if you've got a decently agile craft then standard turrets will have no hope of landing hits outside around three hundred meters range, or closer if you've got enough up-thrust and roll. A good way to tell if you're too close or not maneuvering enough if you can't see the projectiles is to adjust your volume settings and listen for shots hitting your ship,

Second: Design Considerations

-You are most likely not a triceratops, and so your face very likely is neither your shield nor weapon and doesn't need to be out in front of your craft. If you set it in the middle or rear then the front-end can absorb a bit of fire without as much risk of losing the cockpit. Feel free to cover bits of the cockpit you aren't looking out of with armor or other blocks too, or put windows in front of it, a little bit to stave off those repeated scratches can go a long way.

-Survivability is tied to your ability to evade fire. You want the bulk of your thrust to be for the direction you dodge in when being shot at, while everything else is left "adequate" to save on weight. Likewise keep heavy armor to a minimum, most projectiles will either by stopped by light armor, or will blow through regardless, and you don't need the extra weight.

-Gats and rails aren't the kings of dps, but they are the most efficient weapons a small-grid can fit. If you find yourself needing to withdraw for ammo-reasons well before you would need to otherwise, try using these weapons instead. They'll take longer to down a target, but they will ultimately inflict more damage.

Edit: Odd, it keeps deleting the post if I try to add example pictures...

Nothing an old blind space-engineer hasn't already compensated for with a bit of know-how :)

First thing's first: Tactical knowledge

-Turrets try to lead their targets, but Keen hasn't made them smart enough to lead a target moving along a curved path. Fly in a corkscrew path when maneuvering, and do barrel-rolls while holding your up-thrust when keeping range, if you've got a decently agile craft then standard turrets will have no hope of landing hits outside around three hundred meters range, or closer if you've got enough up-thrust and roll. A good way to tell if you're too close or not maneuvering enough if you can't see the projectiles is to adjust your volume settings and listen for shots hitting your ship,

Second: Design Considerations

-You are most likely not a triceratops, and so your face very likely is neither your shield nor weapon and doesn't need to be out in front of your craft. If you set it in the middle or rear then the front-end can absorb a bit of fire without as much risk of losing the cockpit. Feel free to cover bits of the cockpit you aren't looking out of with armor or other blocks too, or put windows in front of it, a little bit to stave off those repeated scratches can go a long way.

-Survivability is tied to your ability to evade fire. You want the bulk of your thrust to be for the direction you dodge in when being shot at, while everything else is left "adequate" to save on weight. Likewise keep heavy armor to a minimum, most projectiles will either by stopped by light armor, or will blow through regardless, and you don't need the extra weight.

-Gats and rails aren't the kings of dps, but they are the most efficient weapons a small-grid can fit. If you find yourself needing to withdraw for ammo-reasons well before you would need to otherwise, try using these weapons instead. They'll take longer to down a target, but they will ultimately inflict more damage.

Edit: Odd, it keeps deleting the post if I try to add example pictures...

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captainbladej52 ●

If you're talking exclusively buffing cockpits alone, then you would be correct that on its own won't do anything. The other parts of that equation are piloting and engineering of the ship. Because if you just buff the cockpit but keep doing the same stuff, now your foe just changes their target to the stuff behind the cockpit and blasts it loose bisecting the ship. Then you're still in the cockpit but the rest of the grid is toast. If they take a badly build fighter up against a capital ship that's just objective poo, it won't matter how good the pilot is. Of course the opposite end of that equation is true too. If they take a good build up against a capital ship but the pilot sucks, then you get the same result. It takes all 3.

Buffing cockpits on its own isn't the answer and is only one part of the equation. They shouldn't be invincible, but they shouldn't be as weak as they are either.

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Star_Kindler ●

I disagree, cockpits in SE1 were incredibly durable in my experience. If you want to build a large fighter with high durability, make an enclosed cockpit. Or, perhaps a larger, much tankier cockpit could be added, but buffing the current sizes I disagree with as they're already very strong for their size.

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Deon Beauchamp ●

How would the change be affect your game?

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Tael ●

Hmmm... again with the images... Lets see if this sticks...

5e4fbd952107bcf0975d9ac37cc4cedd As for how they handle currently, barring lucky shots green typically barely flies by the time it loses the cockpit, and red is almost always full on space-confetti by that point.

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Deon Beauchamp ●

/001-018%20HALO%20MERCEDES%202018%20%20CRASH%20TEST%20%20%20FOM

/dcd1725au14

This is now(2018), strong enough to hold a bus, may be a small one.

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Tael ●

...Neat? But there are currently man-portable rifles capable of blowing through that (with the right ammo), so imitating reality would probably be an argument for making them weaker than they currently are in SE1 so that evne smaller vehicle-mounted weapons only needed one or two round to take out the cockpit (and pilot)...

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Deon Beauchamp ●

This cockpit is not designed for combat, it is designed is for protection at speed. Although this is an apples to oranges comparison, the technology exists in a compact form to protect the pilot. I am sure that if F1 became more like Car Wars the cockpit armour would be advanced accordingly. Such armour can be found on helicopter gun ships. My point is that SE1 small cockpit is like flying in a thin china cup just waiting to be dropped.

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Tael ●

The component and vehicle you're looking for would be the titanium bathtub in the A-10 Thunderbolt II. As for the reason your cockpit feels like glass, its because before they renamed things in warfare 2 the gatling turret's ammo suggested it was a 20mm cannon, and while the tub might stop a single 23mm explosive round, I'd be concerned about the tub's ability to absorb sustained 20mm fire (especially with AP or sabot ammo), and I am quite certain that the canopy wont take that kind of punishment.

Small-grids live and die on their evasion, fly a corkscrew-path in something small and quick, it will work wonders.

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Semtex ●

Glass? 8-) Look at this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xzalcgngO8

Mostly "7,62 AP machinegun bullet" and "3 gram highspeed fragments" (~1200+m/s)

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Deon Beauchamp ●

I feel that without improvement to the cockpit's armour that I am left with one choice to get the game play experience that I am looking for. A compromise, a small area shield over the cockpit area of the vessel. A full shield would not be what I am looking for, as destruction is important for the vibe. The shield would only cover enough to sustain combat a little longer and closer to the target, whilst giving the player the small hope of survival. I agree that aerobatics are necessary, but sustaining control is too.

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Tael ●

That's going to turn in to the shield vs no shield argument again... it would not be productive. There seem to be a mix of players that both are and are not having the issue you seem to be having, suggesting that the issue you are experiencing is not exclusive to you, but it isn't universal either...

How about you post a few jpg of what you're flying, a detailed explanation of your expectations (or link to a Youtube vid depicting what you'd expect), and possibly a vid of your attempt at such so that we can identify where the issue comes from and figure out an appropriate solution.

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Deon Beauchamp ●

I have built a prototype heavy fighter, I need to test it. As it only has ion thrusters, I need a low gravity moon with a long canyon that I can fill with turret towers, any ideas?

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It is called The Knight After.

Small Ind. cockpit - Glass windows - ladder.

Heavy armour - outboard powered decoys - A bit low on sideways and vertical thrust.

Probably will change this after the test.

4x auto canon + 4x gatling

The ladder is for catching engineers that get in the way.

1 mod - Deuterium powered

It has far too many blocks.

Built based on this topic post, sort of.

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Tael ●

Trench-runs in a trench full of turrets tend to not work out well without plot armor, and its hard to evade properly with only ions and poor lateral and vertical thrust, or in a narrow canyon, but I wish you luck.

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Tael ●

Forum's being odd today, just realized it only took the first paragraph... anyways... for the future after your test, how'd it do? And do you have more pictures? (side, top, bottom, back)

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Semtex ●

A simple test:

Make a shape, outline and dimensional copy of the cockpit from any blocks. Attach/insert an appropriate command chair into the design.

What is the durability of such a structure compared to the fabricated cockpit?

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Tomas9970 ●

At least for SE2, the current cockpit takes about 7-9 hits from the debug gun if not very accurate however, it becomes unusable in about 3 hits if you hit the front console. Actually the front console decides if you can still sit in it or no. Small light armor blocks die in 1 hit so it's hard to measure how good the debug gun is.

In SE1, small light armor block die in 2 hits from the large gatling gun and the cockpit takes considerably more than 18 shots so yeah, much more durable.

Also historically, durability of blocks wasn't hard-coded but instead it was derived from the amount of materials used to build it. I think I like it that way so if you want a stronger cockpit, use the fighter one (or really any other than the basic one) that takes more materials.

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